I don't voice that sound in "exit" and similar words (and it always bothered me when other people did when they talked to me). Am I weird?pharazon wrote:Also, <exit> = /EgzIt/.
X
If you'll count the Greek letter <X>, it was used in Classical times to represent [k_h] (it only became [x] later). It's not the Roman letter <X>, but since the Roman alphabet was borrowed from the Greek one, I think it ought to count!Ahribar wrote:Mine too. I have a collection of all the different sounds I've seen it used for:
/ks/ /kS/ /x/ /G/ /X/ /X\/ /G\/ /?\/ /?/ /h/ /D/ /4/ /ts/ /dz/ /ts`/ /tS/ /s/ /z/ /Z/ /S/ /s\/ /C/ /c/ /|\|\/ and even /_?\/ when following a vowel...
Twenty-five....
(The version the Romans borrowed, the West Greek alphabet, had different values for some of the symbols from those in Athenian. West Greeks used <X> instead of <Ξ> for [ks], hence the Latin value of the letter.)
[i]Linguistics will become a science when linguists begin standing on one another's shoulders instead of on one another's toes.[/i]
—Stephen R. Anderson
[i]Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.[/i]
—Séra Tómas Sæmundsson
—Stephen R. Anderson
[i]Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.[/i]
—Séra Tómas Sæmundsson
I say [eksit], but [IgzAmpl=]. Don't know why. Probably just 'cos it's the way I've always heard the word "example" pronounced.valinta wrote:I don't voice that sound in "exit" and similar words (and it always bothered me when other people did when they talked to me). Am I weird?pharazon wrote:Also, <exit> = /EgzIt/.
Tim.
[i]Linguistics will become a science when linguists begin standing on one another's shoulders instead of on one another's toes.[/i]
—Stephen R. Anderson
[i]Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.[/i]
—Séra Tómas Sæmundsson
—Stephen R. Anderson
[i]Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.[/i]
—Séra Tómas Sæmundsson
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doctrellor
- Sanci
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Well, <exit> has the stress before the <x>, and <example> has it before. Maybe that's it?Echobeats wrote:I say [eksit], but [IgzAmpl=]. Don't know why. Probably just 'cos it's the way I've always heard the word "example" pronounced.valinta wrote:I don't voice that sound in "exit" and similar words (and it always bothered me when other people did when they talked to me). Am I weird?pharazon wrote:Also, <exit> = /EgzIt/.
Tim.
I thought of that, but then I remembered "exciting". Does anyone pronounce that with a [gz]? I've certainly never heard it. Though the <c> /s/ may be to blame for that. FYI, in my speech that's [I?_ksAItIN].Jaaaaaa wrote:Well, <exit> has the stress before the <x>, and <example> has it [after]. Maybe that's it?
I can say "exhibit" either way, but I'd probably say it unvoiced more usually. "Exam" is most definitely [Igz{m] though.
Yours, Tim.
[i]Linguistics will become a science when linguists begin standing on one another's shoulders instead of on one another's toes.[/i]
—Stephen R. Anderson
[i]Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.[/i]
—Séra Tómas Sæmundsson
—Stephen R. Anderson
[i]Málin eru höfuðeinkenni þjóðanna.[/i]
—Séra Tómas Sæmundsson
Hmm... yeah, I forgot about <excite> and its kids. Though I still say it's stress-determined; I'm guessing that <excite> would be analyzed as /Ekssait/, but since English doesn't have phonemic /ss/... yeah. But it's just a theory.Echobeats wrote:I thought of that, but then I remembered "exciting". Does anyone pronounce that with a [gz]? I've certainly never heard it. Though the <c> /s/ may be to blame for that. FYI, in my speech that's [I?_ksAItIN].Jaaaaaa wrote:Well, <exit> has the stress before the <x>, and <example> has it [after]. Maybe that's it?
I can say "exhibit" either way, but I'd probably say it unvoiced more usually. "Exam" is most definitely [Igz{m] though.
Yours, Tim.
Don't get mixed up with the orthography, it's just /Ek'sait/. For me, it's /gz/ pre-stress and /ks/ post-stress: 'execute' = /'Eks@kjut/, but 'executor' = /Egz'Ekj@tr/. Before <i> it's voiced no matter what, except in 'exile' and its derivatives I seem to have free variation. A following voiceless letter (except <h>) always renders it voiceless, and it's always /ks/ in the prefix ex- meaning 'former': 'ex-addict' = /Eks'{dIkt/. These rules only apply to initial <ex>; everywhere else I have /ks/ or /z/ (initially).Jaaaaaa wrote:Hmm... yeah, I forgot about <excite> and its kids. Though I still say it's stress-determined; I'm guessing that <excite> would be analyzed as /Ekssait/, but since English doesn't have phonemic /ss/... yeah. But it's just a theory.
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Space Dracula
- Lebom
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No, I explicitly said that it's two. Read it again.finlay wrote:Can I point out that /ks/ is two phonemes in English, not one. Ahribar implied that it was one.
Nevertheless, it's annoying not to have a word for the behaviour of [ks] and [gz] if we're not allowed to say that they're a sort of allophone even though each is two phonemes.
I'd just like to announce that the Great List of Uses for <x> (see previous page) has now reached 40, including a vowel. It now really could be used to make an entire language......
All the debate over English [gz] proves to have been fruitless, as I managed to unearth a conlang in which <x> = /gz/ always. So that's now on the list too.
All the debate over English [gz] proves to have been fruitless, as I managed to unearth a conlang in which <x> = /gz/ always. So that's now on the list too.
[quote="Amaya"]Every now and then, the world tries to say something. I'm never quite sure whether or not to listen to it at times like that.[/quote]
No, because [] isn't the normal value of x in French; cf. existe. I only allow each language to contribute one value. (And yes, the /gz/ and /z/ on the list are from languages in which those are x's normal values.)
The nearest I've got is one language in which <x> is [z] beginning a word and [] ending one (no information on its value elsewhere). But unless I find that in this language x much more commonly occurs finally than initially, that still doesn't count for putting [] on the list.
The nearest I've got is one language in which <x> is [z] beginning a word and [] ending one (no information on its value elsewhere). But unless I find that in this language x much more commonly occurs finally than initially, that still doesn't count for putting [] on the list.
[quote="Amaya"]Every now and then, the world tries to say something. I'm never quite sure whether or not to listen to it at times like that.[/quote]
But isn't French <x> final more often than not? At least, that's how it seems to me.Ahribar wrote:No, because [] isn't the normal value of x in French; cf. existe. I only allow each language to contribute one value. (And yes, the /gz/ and /z/ on the list are from languages in which those are x's normal values.)
The nearest I've got is one language in which <x> is [z] beginning a word and [] ending one (no information on its value elsewhere). But unless I find that in this language x much more commonly occurs finally than initially, that still doesn't count for putting [] on the list.
What crazy mofo uses <x> for a vowel???
The man of science is perceiving and endowed with vision whereas he who is ignorant and neglectful of this development is blind. The investigating mind is attentive, alive; the mind callous and indifferent is deaf and dead. - 'Abdu'l-Bahá
Not the point, dude. Lots of consonants are silenced when final in French, so it's obvious that what we have is an underlying phoneme with a rule silencing most final consonants, rather than <x> corresponding to the phoneme //.Rory wrote:But isn't French <x> final more often than not? At least, that's how it seems to me.Ahribar wrote:No, because [] isn't the normal value of x in French; cf. existe. I only allow each language to contribute one value. (And yes, the /gz/ and /z/ on the list are from languages in which those are x's normal values.)
The nearest I've got is one language in which <x> is [z] beginning a word and [] ending one (no information on its value elsewhere). But unless I find that in this language x much more commonly occurs finally than initially, that still doesn't count for putting [] on the list.
In the language linked above, only <x> is silenced this way. As you'll see from the list, I eventually decided that this was enough to justify adding // -- since there isn't any underlying phoneme; <x> really is written and corresponds to no phoneme at all.
con quesa used it for /i/ in a jokelang. I found the language using it for /@/ on langmaker (it's not a ZBB lang) but it doesn't seem that crazy.What crazy mofo uses <x> for a vowel???
[quote="Amaya"]Every now and then, the world tries to say something. I'm never quite sure whether or not to listen to it at times like that.[/quote]
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vohpenonomae
- N'guny
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Don't say you haven't worked it out; say you haven't found out yet.zompist wrote:Don't take the country boundaries on the Arc?l map too seriously; I haven't worked out its history at all.
"On that island lies the flesh and bone of the Great Charging Bear, for as long as the grass grows and water runs," he said. "Where his spirit dwells, no one can say."