Elcarin writing system

Aidan · Post by **Aidan** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:54 pm

Glenn Kempf wrote:
Aidan wrote:The one thing that doesn't seem to fit to me, is the honorific sword.
I suppose I'd have to agree; from the description, the elcari don't seem particularly warlike or swordwielding.

That plus the fact that it's the one thing that's off to the side of the face, not touching. It doesn't feel quite right to me.

I'd expect maybe a necklace that was somehow reminiscent of an angry face, by analogy to other symbols.

I really like the possibilities for word play brought up, about matching faces to words. Maybe it's not widespread, but you gotta imagine there's some elcari out there getting a kick out of it.

DF · Post by DF » Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:04 pm

zomp, two words: <i>absolutely genuis</i>.

Iscun · Post by **Iscun** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:19 pm

ish-kun
hehe

This is great.

Iscun · Post by **Iscun** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:58 pm

Is that how you'd write "zh?m-p?sht"?

I got confused with "p?sht", because I didn't see a -t suffix, so I kinda just took the t- prefix's arrow and put it below the head rather than above to show that it's at the end of the word, but I think an elkar would scratch his head at that.

I suppose they haven't yet created a system that you could use for any language.

hrhspence · Post by **hrhspence** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:43 pm

very nice! Wish I'd made it up!

Xephyr · Post by **Xephyr** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:22 pm

Very, very nice. It reminded me of the Mayan system as well, but only by sight. It makes me terribly ashamed of my writing systems, but there's no shame in being beaten by the best, I suppose.

Perhaps in the future you could make a word-to-face program that makes composites of the features?

Hmm.... you've probably already done that anyway.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:36 pm

An unsettling thought:

Elkaril contains relatively few syllable-initial or syllable-final consonant clusters, apart from those covered in the description of the writing system (and a few exceptions such as ktuphuq "ktuvok"), but there may be times when an elcar might want to transcribe names or words into Elkaril writing from other languages where unusual (from an elcari point of view) clusters are more common (such as the initial clusters in the Verdurian--and Russian--word steklo or the English string; of course, Russian (say) or Dhekhnami (possibly) have more far more impressive consonant clusters as well.)

For a cluster including two (or more) consonants without an intervening vowel, how else might they be represent other than by...BLANK FACES!!!

Oh, the horror, the horror...

p@,
Glenn

Dudicon · Post by **Dudicon** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:35 pm

Glenn Kempf wrote:Dudicon, is your "real" name Chris? (I tried to decode it and came up with "Kr?th"--Elkar?l lacking an /s/ phoneme.

Yeah, that's right--I have a feeling when school starts back up, my teachers will be getting a few papers the authorship of which will only be denoted by a sort of bored looking face with a beard.

Ihano · Post by **Ihano** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:55 pm

Just an observation on the following.

zompist wrote: Fonts have been created to allow printing, but the elcari do not like printed books very much, as they do not allow much differentiation of the characters.

By this token, might they prefer block printing (if that's the right word)?

Post by **zompist** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:09 pm

Ihano wrote:By this token, might they prefer block printing (if that's the right word)?

Good point. A carved block for a given text could be as expressive as they desired.

hrhspence · Post by **hrhspence** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:37 pm

Hey Zomp,

Any chance we could download a program to use this alphabet on our computers?

Post by **zompist** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:55 pm

hrhspence wrote:Any chance we could download a program to use this alphabet on our computers?

Sure, if someone writes one.

The writing samples are all hand-drawn.

To repeat my most helpful hints for computer drawing:
1. Draw at least twice as big as you intend to display. It's a lot easier to get something respectable that way.
2. Graphics tablet. It's easier to draw using something pen-shaped than something bar-of-soap-shaped.

jburke · Post by **jburke** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:32 pm

I couldn't resist; the cooler the idea, the easier it is to parody.

http://www.geocities.com/rtoennis/ElkarilFace.gif

I call this one "Sly face with boler hat and cigar that wears Groucho Marx glasses and Spock ears after being attacked by Indians."

Dudicon · Post by **Dudicon** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:55 pm

jburke wrote:I couldn't resist; the cooler the idea, the easier it is to parody.

http://www.geocities.com/rtoennis/ElkarilFace.gif

I call this one "Sly face with boler hat and cigar that wears Groucho Marx glasses and Spock ears after being attacked by Indians."

Hehe, nice

.

Xephyr · Post by **Xephyr** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:00 pm

Dudicon wrote:
jburke wrote:I couldn't resist; the cooler the idea, the easier it is to parody.

http://www.geocities.com/rtoennis/ElkarilFace.gif

I call this one "Sly face with boler hat and cigar that wears Groucho Marx glasses and Spock ears after being attacked by Indians."
Hehe, nice .

Nice ggaphm, joke.

Shm Jay · Post by **Shm Jay** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 5:51 pm

I'm surprised there isn't a cursive script for writing quickly. Writing must be extremely labor-intensive and time-consuming if you have to draw faces all the time, and so must be used only for important things, not for grocery lists.

Post by **zompist** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:02 pm

Shm Jay wrote:I'm surprised there isn't a cursive script for writing quickly. Writing must be extremely labor-intensive and time-consuming if you have to draw faces all the time, and so must be used only for important things, not for grocery lists.

Again, hastiness just isn't part of elcarin values.

However, part of this reaction is undoubtedly unfamiliarity. Drawing a stylized face, once you've had years of practice, should compare favorably to lettering an entire word.

Our present culture also frankly discourages drawing after a certain age, and so most of us are bad at it. It's quite the opposite with the elcari-- a good facility with sketching is part of their basic education.

Shm Jay · Post by **Shm Jay** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:24 pm

I would have made an illiterate elkaril

I was poor at art even as a child.

Speaking of elkaril, I find it amusing, yet useful that certain words are used in the grammar. I refer to l?p?d. It gives me something fresh, new, yet opaque, to exclaim in the car when I encounter some bad driver on the road (quite often here in Oklahoma where people don?t seem to have a clue about what the turn signal is used for

) . Not that anyone will hear me; I cautiously keep the windows up

making a dismissive motion with my hand:
Ah, l?p?dkhsh! or
sarcastically, Oh, gl?p?degg!

Your next project should be authentic Elkaril curses and insults.

I?m sure the elkaril would burst out laughing at gl?p?degg.

hrhspence · Post by **hrhspence** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:27 pm

I think I would haveliked growing up with the Elkari

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:46 pm

zompist wrote:
Shm Jay wrote:I'm surprised there isn't a cursive script for writing quickly. Writing must be extremely labor-intensive and time-consuming if you have to draw faces all the time, and so must be used only for important things, not for grocery lists.
Again, hastiness just isn't part of elcarin values.

However, part of this reaction is undoubtedly unfamiliarity. Drawing a stylized face, once you've had years of practice, should compare favorably to lettering an entire word.

At first glance, this may seem unlikely, but it's probably indeed the case. I remember as a tourist in China two years ago being amazed at how elaborate some of the Chinese characters were, then watching the locals scribble them down faster than I could have written an equivalent sentence in English (in cursive--but Chinese cursive is not that radically different from print). (I had an argument (in which I was wrong) with a Chinese cab driver who was convinced that even if I couldn't understand what he was saying, surely I could understand what he was writing.

)

As for growing up in elcari society, I don't know if I'd fit in well, but there is a great deal about the elcari way of life that impresses me greatly (their lack of haste, absence of hierarchy, belief in hard work, and love of crafting and creating things).

p@,
Glenn

P.S. Shm Jay--thanks for sharing your use of Elkaril profanity (elcari road rage! Interesting...) Perhaps you say a few kind words in Verdurian and tip your supa to kind drivers?

DF · Post by DF » Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:05 pm

Zomp, are there any in Elcar society that are just poor at crafting or drawing? If so, are they shunned or persecuted in any way, or simply still accepted?

Shm Jay · Post by **Shm Jay** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:34 pm

P.S. Shm Jay--thanks for sharing your use of Elkaril profanity (elcari road rage! Interesting...) Perhaps you say a few kind words in Verdurian and tip your supa to kind drivers?

I will have to be very courtly and look up some expressions in Cadhinorian. "Thank you, kind wagon-driver" will probably be what I have to say.

Agelletes pavondaa traudec, ek di?ku.

I couldn?t find "thank you", so I tried to back-derive it.

Unfortunately they will already have driven away by the time I say this.

By the way, I wonder what my expressions look like in Elkaril?

Certain faces must get scribbled on walls a lot... or would be if hastiness were a characteristic of the Elkaril

Shm Jay · Post by **Shm Jay** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:38 pm

Iscun wrote:

Is that how you'd write "zh?m-p?sht"?

Maybe you can add the glyph for {bbood}, since bb is a phoneme in Elkaril, and then we can have something interesting for the title.

Post by **zompist** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:15 pm

DarkFantasy wrote:Zomp, are there any in Elcar society that are just poor at crafting or drawing? If so, are they shunned or persecuted in any way, or simply still accepted?

Rather as in our society, those unfit for any productive task become politicians.

Ha! No; those who don't feel gifted artistically have other professions available-- raising food, trading, etc.

I like Shm Jay's use of Elkar?l, by the way. (He must feel fairly safe from interdimensional portals.)

DF · Post by DF » Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:26 pm

ah, okay. I had gotten the impression that all Elkari culture was centered around craftsmanship. Oh, and another question: are then any elcar that live in human culture? Like, is there ever a chance of finding an elcari bar tender or inn keeper? Are they accepted into human civilization, and vice-versa, are humans accepted into elcari civilization?