Europe - Erel?e correspondences

[Legros]

I always thought that Verduria = 17th and 18th century France (something in the atmosphere, even in the multiplicity of geographical and social dialects, the refined but snobbish aristocracy in the capital city, etc), Kebri and Flora = the UK (Kebri is Verduria's chief rival at sea, the Kebreni are daring merchants and colonialists; Flora is the gentler aspect of Britishness), Jippirasti = Islam, and Dhekhnam = totalitarian European states, the Evil Empire in the East!

Verdurian sounds very Romance to me. Its vocabulary has many different sources and its grammar is complex, like French. The phonology is almost Portuguese, which French traits, declensions are as developed as in Late Latin or Early Romance. Barakhinei also sounds very French to me: the charming scene entitled "Lhumudrel buys a book" sounds much like 17th century French theatre.

[So Haleza Grise]

I always thought that Verduria = 17th and 18th century France (something in the atmosphere, even in the multiplicity of geographical and social dialects, the refined but snobbish aristocracy in the capital city, etc), Kebri and Flora = the UK (Kebri is Verduria's chief rival at sea, the Kebreni are daring merchants and colonialists; Flora is the gentler aspect of Britishness), Jippirasti = Islam, and Dhekhnam = totalitarian European states, the Evil Empire in the East!

Verdurian sounds very Romance to me. Its vocabulary has many different sources and its grammar is complex, like French. The phonology is almost Portuguese, which French traits, declensions are as developed as in Late Latin or Early Romance. Barakhinei also sounds very French to me: the charming scene entitled "Lhumudrel buys a book" sounds much like 17th century French theatre.

I thought so too - it sounded very like Moliere.

[chris_notts]

Kebri and Flora = the UK (Kebri is Verduria's chief rival at sea, the Kebreni are daring merchants and colonialists; Flora is the gentler aspect of Britishness),

In what way? I'm always interested in how people we (people from the UK) are percieved abroad, since of course the picture is different from the inside. I might be able to guess if I knew more about Mark's conworld, but as it is I'm in the dark.

[zompist]

Frank is quite right about the French influence... blame it on all those French classes studying Moliere, Racine, Corneille, and La Rochefoucauld!

[Legros]

Kebri and Flora = the UK (Kebri is Verduria's chief rival at sea, the Kebreni are daring merchants and colonialists; Flora is the gentler aspect of Britishness),

In what way? I'm always interested in how people we (people from the UK) are percieved abroad, since of course the picture is different from the inside.

The flaids are peaceful and kind, slightly eccentric, and their language is phonologically very close to English.

The first time I went to the UK, in 1968 (I was 11 years old), we French kids were told a few basic facts about British life: in the UK people don't jostle; they are trustworthy, and they never cheat others on small change (metrication hadn't occurred yet, and change was a nightmare). They don't steal, unless it's a train full of money (the Great Train Robbery was a recent event). Most importantly, they are very polite and clean, they don't throw things on the pavement. In the 60's, it was still basically true. Britain was very law-abiding, then. The British countryside was still like Postman Pat's country.
*sighs with nostalgia*

Years ago, I put transparent plastic on a Postman Pat poster to turn it into a desk blotter for my youngest son. He still uses it, but it's nearly invisible under the junk which covers his desk

[chris_notts]

The first time I went to the UK, in 1968 (I was 11 years old), we French kids were told a few basic facts about British life: in the UK people don't jostle; they are trustworthy, and they never cheat others on small change (metrication hadn't occurred yet, and change was a nightmare). They don't steal, unless it's a train full of money (the Great Train Robbery was a recent event). Most importantly, they are very polite and clean, they don't throw things on the pavement. In the 60's, it was still basically true. Britain was very law-abiding, then. The British countryside was still like Postman Pat's country.
*sighs with nostalgia*

Years ago, I put transparent plastic on a Postman Pat poster to turn it into a desk blotter for my youngest son. He still uses it, but it's nearly invisible under the junk which covers his desk

I love Postman pat, or at least I did when I was a child. And for me at least that stereotype is both truth and false: there are many people who fit it, but there's also a semi separate yob culture who seem to delight in violence and destruction, which seems to have grown in recent years. Perhaps it was always that way. But anyway, since I don't litter, haven't stolen anything since I was five, and would like to say that I'm trustworthy, I guess that makes me a stereotypical English person to the French.
One thing that foreign people sometimes don't realize though is that politeness can in itself be rude. I find that many foreign people fail to grasp how rude biting sarcastic politeness is. They tend to take the words at face value rather than noticing the deliberate exaggeration...
WHat about the other culture? If to you Flora is the gentler side of Britishness, what is the less gentle side?

[-]

And for me at least that stereotype is both truth and false: there are many people who fit it, but there's also a semi separate yob culture who seem to delight in violence and destruction, which seems to have grown in recent years.

The mores and manners of actual Brits have always seemed pretty salty and forthright to me (by comparison with Canada, anyway). To many Canucks of my generation, Britain is really the country of The Royle Family and Coronation_Street (and also Cornershop and Talvin Singh). Not a bad evolution from Postman Pat, I'd say.

[Glenn]

I always thought that Verduria = 17th and 18th century France (something in the atmosphere, even in the multiplicity of geographical and social dialects, the refined but snobbish aristocracy in the capital city, etc), Kebri and Flora = the UK (Kebri is Verduria's chief rival at sea, the Kebreni are daring merchants and colonialists; Flora is the gentler aspect of Britishness), Jippirasti = Islam, and Dhekhnam = totalitarian European states, the Evil Empire in the East!

I would agree with Frank about Verduria (although I lack Frank's knowledge of things French ), Jippurasti, and more loosely Dhekhnam. On the other hand, I have never thought of Kebri as being similar to England; in fact, I haven't been able to find an Earthly nation that matches Kebri in my mind very well at all. (I do, however, see where Frank's own thoughts about Kebri and Flora come from.)

Verduria actually reminds me both of France and of England--I find the history and structure of the Verdurian constitutional monarchy vaguely reminiscent of the British one, although that may simply be the example I know best.

As for other Almean states: the "decadent" Ismain aristocracy reminds me strongly of the theme of the "superfluous man" in Russian literature of the early 1800s (i.e., aristocrats who may have luxury, but no real power, and no real point to their existence). The Skourene states remind me both of the Greek city-states and (with their cold climate) the Hanseatic League and similar northern European mercantile states.

Xurno is more difficult: I've seen it compared with China (albeit, once again, a northern-temperate China), and I agree with SHG about the example of Endajue and the xaleza, but the earlier Wedei and Axunashin periods are more reminiscient of the city-states and empires of Mesopotamia, and the "artists' state" of modern Xurno is like nothing on Earth that I've seen--Revaudo strikes a more "European" chord in me. I find that the artistic Salons and academies remind me (probably due to the name) of the artistic and aristocratic societies of early modern Western Europe, especially the Parisian salons--which brings us back to France again.

(Oh, and Mark's admitted that Bezuxao and the Master of the Shushumbor are inspired by the 12th-century Assassins and their leader, the "Old Man of the Mountain" (Hassan i-Sabah), which I think is a fascinating vein to mine. )

I've broken my own rule here , but once again, I'd like to repeat that while there are certainly borrowings, Almea is not Earth, not everything in Almea matches a place or event from Earth history; there is also much that is unique or follows existing themes along a different path--and that is the way it should be. On the one hand, readers like a setting they can identify with; but on the other, variety is the spice of life.

p@,
Glenn

[Glenn]

In what way? I'm always interested in how people we (people from the UK) are percieved abroad, since of course the picture is different from the inside. I might be able to guess if I knew more about Mark's conworld, but as it is I'm in the dark.

You probably know this already, but info on Mark's conworld and conlangs can be found at Virtual Verduria. Feel free to explore.

p@,
Glenn

[Mornche Geddick]

What about Dekhnam?

Dhekhnam suggests elements of several Earth states to me:

1) Apartheid South Africa (racism)
2) the American South prior to the Civil War (slavery and racism)
3) Carthage (commercial state and human sacrifice)
4) The Aztecs. (empire and human sacrifice again)

Sarnae suggests Ireland under English rule and Greece under Turkish rule. Monkhay similar but also may have something in common with the Scottish Highlands after 1745.

[The Rt. Hon. Vlad Dracula]

I love Postman pat, or at least I did when I was a child.

Postman Pat, Postman Pat,
Postman Pat ran over his cat!
Blood and guts went flying,
Postman Pat was crying,
That will teach him not to drink and drive.

I probably learnt that in something like year 3.

[Legros]

WHat about the other culture? If to you Flora is the gentler side of Britishness, what is the less gentle side?

Britain and France have been rivals for centuries, very much like Verduria and Kebri... remember Trafalgar and Waterloo!

That was centuries ago, of course, but it left traces in the French language, when we speak of "un coup de Trafalgar" (an unforeseen disaster), "Ce sera son Waterloo" (it will be his ultimate defeat). Those expressions are rather old-fashioned now, though.

Defeats have left traces in the French collective psyche (don't laugh, Boom and Ketske). For instance, a friend of mine said, talking about the unpleasant side effects of medication he was taking: "Sexuellement, c'est la B?r?zina." The battle of the Berezina was Napoleon's decisive defeat near Moscow. Oh well, after all even the Wehrmacht didn't go so far

To many Canucks of my generation, Britain is really the country of The Royle Family and Coronation_Street (and also Cornershop and Talvin Singh). Not a bad evolution from Postman Pat, I'd say.

As entertainment, probably (Postman Pat is for children, although some adults - like me - enjoy it too) but not as a description of an idealized rural society one would like to live in, according to the description of the Royle family provided by your link:

Mum (Sue Johnston), Dad (Ricky Tomlinson), Denise (Caroline Aherne) and Antony (Ralf Little) sit in front of the television in their squalid living room, smoking, talking and bickering.

IMHO there's nothing specifically British about unimaginative people watching tv all the time, smoking and bickering

As for Talvin Singh, he disappeared from the mainstream radar soon after he got some award which temporarily boosted the sale of his records. As lines-magazine stated:

These days the same record stores that once devoted extensive advertising campaigns to British Asian artists in the past now rarely carry any British Asian music albums because "they don't sell."

[Warmaster]

Britain and France have been rivals for centuries, very much like Verduria and Kebri... remember Trafalgar and Waterloo!

Incidently, it is the 200th aniversary of Trafalgar this year! - and the 190th of Waterloo!

[-]

[The Britain of the Royle Family and Coronotion Street is not] an idealized rural society one would like to live in

Certainly not! But I find their depictions of British working-class life quite humane and oddly touching. Perhaps because they're not idealized as much as anything else.

Of course I do have to admit I've never been big on the idealization of rural life generally; I find it endlessly irritating that churning out such depictions of our own country continues to be a virtual obsession of the Canadian cultural industry. Could be that's because I spent my early childhood in an actual rural setting, and there's nary a romantic thing about those memories...

IMHO there's nothing specifically British about unimaginative people watching tv all the time, smoking and bickering

Ah, but it's the way they do it, see.

As for Talvin Singh, he disappeared from the mainstream radar soon after he got some award which temporarily boosted the sale of his records.

I actually think it's merciful that the Asian-culture craze has kind of flared out. It's not like I want Talvin Singh to lose money or anything, but these things have a way of getting bowdlerized by the mechanisms of faddhishness; hearing everyone and their dog sampling sitars and Indian vocals was getting old. But the Asian subculture in Britain is still vibrant and interesting (and Talvin Singh's music is still good!).

[Cypresstwo]

Dhekhnam suggests elements of several Earth states to me:...

3) Carthage (commercial state and human sacrifice)

1. Dheknam is an agricultural nation, even in the 'modern' era.
2. Dheknam does not practice human sacrificce (at least, it has never been spcifically mentioned AFAIK).
3. The Munkashi did, though. They either committed wholesale slaughter and used religion as an excuse (in Ereltald), or killed themselves as a noble act of self-sacrifice (a la Dacia) in the longer-held regions. By comparison, Carthage only took the lives of newborns and young children, and only in emergencies.

IMO: I found the Munkhashi practice of granting new lands to the soldiers who took it very Roman [Post-Marius].

But the Asian subculture in Britain is still vibrant and interesting

Does that have any parallel to America's 'Ghetto Culture'?

[Mornche Geddick]

2. Dheknam does not practice human sacrificce (at least, it has never been spcifically mentioned AFAIK).

I admit Zompist doesn't say the Dhekhnami *do* keep up the old Munkhashi tradition. But he does mention (historical atlas 1989) that the Tyellakh wanted to sacrifice people but didn't have any conquered vassals.

"The Eynleyni retained the hierarchical structure taught by both ktuvoki and Tzhuro, and they still worshipped Gelalh; but having no prisoners of war on hand, they had to sacrifice animals."

If the Dhekhnami still want to butcher people in their rites, there's not a lot to stop them. They don't care what other peoples think of them. If you were a Demoshi and you found it distasteful what could you do? If you let people know how you felt, you'd get jeered at for being a wimp.

On a different note, the Ezi :ch imi racism reminded me a bit of the Hindu Caste system. Like the Ezi :ch imi, the Aryans first conquered another people and then invented theological reasons why they should be masters and the conquered people their slaves. For the Hindus, the reason is that the lower castes are expiating sins from their former lives.

The difference is that where Me :sh aism only had two castes, Hinduism has four, plus the Untouchables (and a system of subcastes more complex than the Hundred Planes). Also unlike the Me :sh aic system, theHindu castes have lasted for thousands of years. Their dislike of intercaste marriage may have something to do with that.

[Neek]

Dhekhnam remains me less of Carthage or the Aztec empire, but more of soviet Russia. Perhaps its orientation to the Eastern plain has me thinking that...

[-]

But the Asian subculture in Britain is still vibrant and interesting

Does that have any parallel to America's 'Ghetto Culture'?

Not especially; American ghettoes aren't immigrant enclaves, so I think they tend to be quite different from Asian and Caribbean neighbourhoods in Britain. At least that's the sense I have, extrapolating from my experience of Canadian ghettoes in cities like Toronto -- the comparison will be imperfect. (My direct knowledge of London is also limited and rather out-of-date these days, but oddly enough I know more people living there now than I do in almost any American city.)

[Mornche Geddick]

Dhekhnam remains me less of Carthage or the Aztec empire, but more of soviet Russia. Perhaps its orientation to the Eastern plain has me thinking that...

There's this.

"The Dhekhnami have closed down the cletan? in their territory, and chased the perarh out of Ilzanea; they still suffer those in Eteban and Visecra to remain, these having made Soviet-style professions of fealty to their overlords. "

[So Haleza Grise]

Dhekhnam remains me less of Carthage or the Aztec empire, but more of soviet Russia. Perhaps its orientation to the Eastern plain has me thinking that...

In Ktuvoki Dhekhnam, humans sacrifice you!

[brandrinn]

Dhekhnam remains me less of Carthage or the Aztec empire, but more of soviet Russia. Perhaps its orientation to the Eastern plain has me thinking that...

In Ktuvoki Dhekhnam, humans sacrifice you!

this is officially the funniest thing i've heard in weeks. well done.

[Barvitex]

Jippirasti - Islam
Cadhinas - Rome
Dhekhnam - Russia
Arcel - Pre-Columbian America

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

That's an old thread of the very old times.

Indeed, in all our discussions, we never thought about Arcel. Unlike you, I do not believe Arcel to be Erelae's New World. On the contrary, it feels more like Erelae's Asia : a land where everything feels like the opposite, without being too retarded to question the people's soul. The Bé are partially reminiscient of China, though its feminism is a striking difference. I cannot get a feeling over Uytai however.

If anything, Erelae's New World is Tellinor. And I guess we will see some Verdurian speaking regions there in a few years.

[WeepingElf]

Axunai/Xurno feels somewhat like India to me, with:

Ezichimi ~ Aryans
Wedei ~ Dravidians
Meshaism ~ Hinduism
Ewemi ~ Hijras (more or less)
Endajue ~ Buddhism

All this despite being in a location, based on the "inverted Europe" model, more or less corresponding to Germany.

There are differences, though. Buddhism never really caught on in India itself, but rather blossomed in the countries east of India. And there never was a Revaudo revolution in India. Also, Axunashin is not as conservative an Eastern language as Sanskrit is an IE one.

As others have said:

Cadhinor ~ Latin
Cuezi ~ Greek
Jippirasti ~ Islam
Belshai ~ Switzerland

Furthermore:

Lenani-Littoral ~ Afro-Asiatic (via triconsonantal roots)

The various non-uestu races are of course without real Earth analogues.

[brandrinn]

I don't know why it's so much fun to make these lists, but it is!

Ismahi ~ France, in a way (what with the nasal vowels and haughty condescension)
Verduria/Kebri wars ~ Punic wars, except Verduria loses the first one
Fei ~ Koreans (long-abused linguistic near-isolate under strong influence from other cultures and religions)
Monkhayic people ~ Old European Gimbutas-esque monolith builders
Obenzaya ~ Medieval Hungary (those cute little nomads think they can run a school district! Awwww!)
Bolon ~ Scythia (motto: "this way to everywhere else; bring your sword!")
Arcel ~ precolonial Africa/America/Asia mix (rift valleys full of tea and potatoes? Awesome!)
Karazi ~ Pashtuns (motto: "Well, we had a good run, guys.")
EDIT: Mgunikpe ~ Tungusic people or other Siberian groups