Elcar

Questions or discussions about Almea or Verduria-- also the Incatena. Also good for postings in Almean languages.
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Elcar

Post by Ihano »

Cha, divrom nun eta so? elcar??

Fue, iy esme, nibkiam celshir cel soin elcarin er soin uestuin? Ivricao, dy so? chel? kt? zhesu dhel? arash?, ac eu eshshane shoz? kiam uest? vul? indolir im soen scurin elcari?? (Ledhad, c?e Kare iy deyon ftaconei? :wink: )

Iy esce eu tro ret? pere ftoren?
So voy sur so?n otr?n cot?n ci-min?i e fsiy.

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Post by zompist »

Well, there was at least one such war, though it wasn't just a human-elcar war; it was one of the iliu-ktuvok wars, in which other Thinking Kinds participated on both sides.

Almean uest? are not as suited as terrestrial humans to live in very dry climates, so they rarely contest land occupied by the elcar

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Post by Drydic »

Just noticed something in the Cadhinorian section of the Religions:

The single god of the elcari (Khemthu-N?r) finds himself made into a minor Cadhinorian godling, Kentun?r, patron of the elcari.

Wouldn't it be Centunór? or Centhunór? Even with passing through Barakhinei, ...wait a minute... then it would be Ver. Hendhunór!

I am now confused.

Mark, HELP!!! !!!
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Post by zompist »

The Cadhinor was Khenthunor, whose normal development is Hentunor (th :> dh only intervocalically). That was good enough for the medievals, but somebody seems to have felt it wasn't accurate enough, and insisted on k in Verdurian translations of the Adhivro.

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Post by Drydic »

Did sombody's name begin with a z?
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So Haleza Grise
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Post by So Haleza Grise »

There really wouldn't be much point in marching all the way up the mountain, anyway, with elcari dropping things on top of you the whole way, only to find that when you get to the stone city, the doors are locked/invisible/password protected, and it's a bit hard to lug battering rams up mountains ;).

But on the subject of elcari, you mentioned that basically they operate co-operatively, rather than in competition, and they usually disband their group after they've finished the task.

This is all fine, but what then is the impetus for developing specialisation? I know that elcari are extrodinarily skilled, but it's still inefficient to have each elcar maintaining a constant skill in everything. Surely there must be some degree of specialisation - some elcari who act (some or most of the time) as jewelsmiths, or weapon smiths, or mine architects, or even as traders. What about liaison officers/interpreters for dealing with dduch?

Oh yes, and - no beards on elcari, right? ;)

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Post by zompist »

So Haleza Grise wrote:But on the subject of elcari, you mentioned that basically they operate co-operatively, rather than in competition, and they usually disband their group after they've finished the task.

This is all fine, but what then is the impetus for developing specialisation? I know that elcari are extrodinarily skilled, but it's still inefficient to have each elcar maintaining a constant skill in everything. Surely there must be some degree of specialisation - some elcari who act (some or most of the time) as jewelsmiths, or weapon smiths, or mine architects, or even as traders. What about liaison officers/interpreters for dealing with dduch?
Oh, sure, there are specialists. An elcar, or a family of elcari, might work as smiths. That isn't considered an organization or institution.

Many elcari go about human lands trading and doing smithing or mining; most of these will know human languages. There generally isn't diplomacy per se, since there isn't that much to discuss at a 'state' level. (If there is, humans can come to a gg?j or council, or the gg?j can send a representative to a human king.)
So Haleza Grise wrote:Oh yes, and - no beards on elcari, right? ;)
You can judge from the picture on the biology page-- they may have rather wispy little beards. One serious difference from dwarves. :)

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Post by Jaaaaaa »

Drydic_guy wrote:Did sombody's name begin with a z?
LOL! GOod 'un! Bu really, who decided that? Someone at soem prestigous university most likely.[/i]

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Post by So Haleza Grise »

I know the elcarin orthography isn't ready yet, but some things you mention about it interest me . . .

they have written records going back 15,000 years. Did they invent a featural system entirely on their own, or did the script evolve gradually? Given that they are elcari, it wouldn't surprise me if the script was created pretty much ex nihilo. Maybe Khemthu-Nor taught them that, too.

Secondly, what sort of things do they write? Lots of inscriptions, presumably, lots of craftsmen's signatures, records of transactions, geneological records etc. Is there such a thing as elcarin popular literature? Do they use paper? printing presses?

Finally, do they actually possess records of "Old Elcarin" or any sort of different form of the language they speak? (I imagine they don't have much contact with the khataj of the Diqun Bormai - too many shualsannoi and whatnot in the way.

I have a great many other questions I've just thought of, but I'll leave them for a bit, since the number of questions given in a single post directly impinges on Mark's ability to answer them briefly. ;)

--Rhisto Filipei

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Post by zompist »

So Haleza Grise wrote:they have written records going back 15,000 years. Did they invent a featural system entirely on their own, or did the script evolve gradually? Given that they are elcari, it wouldn't surprise me if the script was created pretty much ex nihilo. Maybe Khemthu-Nor taught them that, too.
I don't know yet... all I really know so far is that the writing system is designed primarily for carving in stone; that will affect the letterforms quite a bit. I picture it as somewhat Aztec-like.
Secondly, what sort of things do they write? Lots of inscriptions, presumably, lots of craftsmen's signatures, records of transactions, geneological records etc. Is there such a thing as elcarin popular literature? Do they use paper? printing presses?
All of that, plus manuals of craftwork, metallurgy, astronomy, and mathematics, and histories of their cities and wars. Popular literature mostly consists of short songs and poems, riddles, puzzles, and jokes. They're not very much into stories.

They didn't invent printing on their own, but I think they'd be glad to borrow the idea.
Finally, do they actually possess records of "Old Elcarin" or any sort of different form of the language they speak? (I imagine they don't have much contact with the khataj of the Diqun Bormai - too many shualsannoi and whatnot in the way.
The earliest records show a language very much like the one we know of today. What, you think someone could improve on Khemthu-N?r's own words? :)

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Post by butsuri »

zompist wrote:
So Haleza Grise wrote:they have written records going back 15,000 years. Did they invent a featural system entirely on their own, or did the script evolve gradually? Given that they are elcari, it wouldn't surprise me if the script was created pretty much ex nihilo. Maybe Khemthu-Nor taught them that, too.
I don't know yet... all I really know so far is that the writing system is designed primarily for carving in stone; that will affect the letterforms quite a bit. I picture it as somewhat Aztec-like.
The Aztecs didn't really have a complete writing system, though, did they? I gather they had numerical notation, calendrical glyphs and pictograms which could express some concepts, and names either directly or by rebus, but nothing that corresponded to speech. At least, that's my impression.

http://www.ancientscripts.com/aztec.html
http://www.azteca.net/aztec/nahuatl/writing.html

I guess the challenge in designing an elcarin script intended for carving into stone is to avoid looking like Germanic runes, and thus like Tolkien's Cirth.

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Post by zompist »

butsuri wrote:The Aztecs didn't really have a complete writing system, though, did they? I gather they had numerical notation, calendrical glyphs and pictograms which could express some concepts, and names either directly or by rebus, but nothing that corresponded to speech. At least, that's my impression.
Your information is out of date, I'm afraid! It used to be maintained that the Aztec system was limited, but progress in decipherment has been explosive in the last couple of decades. And the Maya decipherment was directly linked to reconstructions of proto-Maya. A good introduction to all this is Michael Coe's Breaking the Maya Code, but even this is not up to date.
butsuri wrote:I guess the challenge in designing an elcarin script intended for carving into stone is to avoid looking like Germanic runes, and thus like Tolkien's Cirth.
No problem; the elcari would consider those to be mere hasty scratches.

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So Haleza Grise
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Post by So Haleza Grise »

Ok, next bunch of questions . . . ;)

I'm a little confused about the Almeans' views on the origin of the murtani. They are considered to be a separate species, but both the Cuezians and the elcari themselves describe a time when elcari and murtani were the same. What do the Verdurians think of this? Is there much scholarly investigation of the legends?

What would the elcarin word for "icelan" be? They must have one, since they know of the four Thinking Kinds; but i can't find one anywhere in the lexicon.

Thirdly, do the Xurnese, Gurdagons, southerners in general, have much contact with elcari? The Erelaeans must be priveleged that they are on the only continent where it is possible to trade goods and ideas with the elcari.

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Post by So Haleza Grise »

zompist wrote: The earliest records show a language very much like the one we know of today. What, you think someone could improve on Khemthu-N?r's own words? :)
No, of course not, but, skilled as they are, they are imperfect mortals, so they must have slowly degraded their speech over the millenia since they first learned it. Alas for this imperfect world, etc . . .

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Post by butsuri »

zompist wrote: Your information is out of date, I'm afraid! It used to be maintained that the Aztec system was limited, but progress in decipherment has been explosive in the last couple of decades. And the Maya decipherment was directly linked to reconstructions of proto-Maya. A good introduction to all this is Michael Coe's Breaking the Maya Code, but even this is not up to date.
I can certainly believe this, given how few documents survive, and how much progress has been made in Mayan. I can't find anything about this online, though. Is there much on the Aztec situation in this Coe book?

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Post by zompist »

butsuri wrote:I can certainly believe this, given how few documents survive, and how much progress has been made in Mayan. I can't find anything about this online, though. Is there much on the Aztec situation in this Coe book?
You know, I was sloppy here... I assumed that the Aztec script was based on the Maya. I don't have a copy of Coe's book, and the only reference I have, The World's Writing Systems, suggests that Aztec script wasn't true writing. Of course, that's what they said about the Maya script before it was deciphered.

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Post by zompist »

So Haleza Grise wrote:
zompist wrote: The earliest records show a language very much like the one we know of today. What, you think someone could improve on Khemthu-N?r's own words? :)
No, of course not, but, skilled as they are, they are imperfect mortals, so they must have slowly degraded their speech over the millenia since they first learned it. Alas for this imperfect world, etc . . .
All too true for humans; but elcarin speech doesn't necessarily work that way. The major engine of sound change amoung humans is the desire to sound like a group one identifies with, and this drive is absent among elcari. (They have their own vices, but indulging the primate hierarchy isn't one of them.)

(There's some sound change; for instance, the implosives are derived from doubled consonants, and in fact they're still spelled that way (a feature I copied for the transliteration).)

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Post by zompist »

So Haleza Grise wrote:I'm a little confused about the Almeans' views on the origin of the murtani. They are considered to be a separate species, but both the Cuezians and the elcari themselves describe a time when elcari and murtani were the same. What do the Verdurians think of this? Is there much scholarly investigation of the legends?
Well, the basic Verdurian response would be "Dude (zevu), of course, they're a separate species (kest), they're evil!" And this is accurate enough, since kest is a broader concept than biological species. The m?rtani live apart, look different, act different, and in general act like monsters rather than civilized beings. This is quite different from (say) the Dhekhnami, who are pretty obviously human beings, some good, some bad, like themselves.

Of course, elirivisanom? these days use kest for biological species, and somewhat to their surprise, they find themselves whispering that the elcari and m?rtani are one kest, both because the best history says that they were once one people, and because it's known that they are interfertile.
What would the elcarin word for "icelan" be? They must have one, since they know of the four Thinking Kinds; but i can't find one anywhere in the lexicon.
I've added one, just for you: nupggud, meaning roughly 'forest imp'. (If you conclude that the elcari don't have a real high opinion of them, you'd be right...)
Thirdly, do the Xurnese, Gurdagons, southerners in general, have much contact with elcari? The Erelaeans must be priveleged that they are on the only continent where it is possible to trade goods and ideas with the elcari.
Yes-- a bit more so, perhaps, because the elcarin settlement in the Diqun Bormai is actually larger.

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Post by So Haleza Grise »

Ok, just one more question . . . and this one doesn't relate directly to Elcari; it's just something i've been wondering since the Historical Atlas came out.

Is "bormai" a Xurnese word?

And what about "Diqun"? Was it borrowed from the northen Elcari, or the southern?

inconsequential, I know, but hey, something so rich in detail as Almea is sure to attract detailed scrutiny. . .

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Post by zompist »

So Haleza Grise wrote:Ok, just one more question . . . and this one doesn't relate directly to Elcari; it's just something i've been wondering since the Historical Atlas came out.

Is "bormai" a Xurnese word?

And what about "Diqun"? Was it borrowed from the northen Elcari, or the southern?
Yes, bormai is Xurnese for 'mountain range', formed from borma 'mountain' (cognate to Cu?zi ba:ruma and Verdurian parna), plus the augmentative -i.

And Diqun is from Elkar?l diqm 'cobalt ore', from diq 'cobalt' + -m 'substance for making'. So your question related to the elcari after all. :)

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Post by Raphael »

So Haleza Grise wrote:they have written records going back 15,000 years.
What, they invented writing before animal husbandry?

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Post by zompist »

Raphael wrote:What, they invented writing before animal husbandry?
Somebody's math is bad; I hope it's yours. :) The Atlas says that the elcari domesticated the goat around -22000 ZE (that is, 25500 years ago), and had agriculture by -20000 ZE. Elkar?l written records date back 15000 years, thus, to -11500.

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Post by Jaaaaaa »

what exactly is husbandry? :oops:

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Post by Glenn »

Jaaaaaa wrote:what exactly is husbandry? :oops:
According to my encyclopedia CD (which is what I usually whip out when people start asking questions), animal husbandry is the "breeding, feeding, and management of animals, or livestock."

In the case of the elcari, this refers to how they domesticated the goat (and later the sheep) and began to breed them and keep them in herds for meat, milk, and wool (the reference is in the -1600 ZE entry in the Historical Atlas). According to the Elkaril page, they later obtained cows, chickens, and horses (ponies) from humans, and began to keep them as well.

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Husbandry

Post by eodrakken »

Regarding "husbandry":

Though I knew the word, I wondered about its origin.
Webster's Collegiate Dictionary wrote: hus-band-ry n (14c) 1 archaic : the care of a household 2 : the control or judicious use of resources : CONSERVATION 3 a : the cultivation or production of plants and animals : AGRICULTURE b : the scientific control and management of a branch of farming and esp. of domestic animals
Looks like this is a case of a general (and originally self-explanatory) word becoming limited to one specific use as time passed.

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