I'm very much enjoying the Count of Years. I was wondering: in the prose parts, did you make for yourself any literary guidelines, like how sentences are structured or such?
Let's see, let me think of more questions. OK: in Cuzeian religion, what religous/sociological role did or does the Count of Years play? Is it examined by scholars for all its possible implications, like the Bible? If not, how did people view it? How well are, or were, the common people acquainted with its details?
When the King of Ogres is introduced, you spell it "Kind of Ogres."
I know it racks the mind to come up with believable religions and religious texts, and I couldn't in a long time do what you've done here. However, I suppose the one thing that feels a little false with me is the new qualities I?inos gave the animals to counter what Eca?as did. Protection and guile for the small, that makes a lot of sense, but "steward the prey and always leave a remnant," "long life and small fertility," "speed and prudence in the use of their claws"? This feels perhaps a little too informed by your knowledge in these fields; are societies at the level of the Cuzeians really aware of all these subtle ecological characteristics?
Just curious...
The Count of Years
Yes, I specified "Times CE" as the font, because it looks better on my Mac. Without that, it takes the vowels-with-macron from Times CE and the other letters from my default font, in a slightly different size, which looks a bit odd.butsuri wrote:... Actually, I think it has something to do with the name of the font, which has the word "times" in it. But is there a reason why the second page is in a particular font, and the first isn't?
Tomorrow I'll be back at work and can see what it looks like under Windows and if any changes are needed. (If anyone's using Unix/Linux and can suggest a better font for that, tell me.)
Re: As for me
Yes, though it's mostly aesthetic-- "does this fit or not?" I constantly had to watch out for "epic language", and I tried to use relatively simple language (that's one reason I talk about the "dream" of I?inos, rather than his "conception" or "imagination" or whatever). And I tried to make connections to what I knew of Cuzeian culture-- although the Cuzeians heard these stories from the iliu, they would have understood them in terms of their own culture.Ihano wrote:I'm very much enjoying the Count of Years. I was wondering: in the prose parts, did you make for yourself any literary guidelines, like how sentences are structured or such?
It's the first part of the Cuzeian scriptures, and except for the songs, the most accessible. So it's both painstakingly studied by scholars, and familiar to the common people as a set of stories. The farther you go on in history, the more mucked up it is with theological asides, poems, and praises to probably fictitious ancestors, but the version you're reading is what everybody remembers from the book anyway, just as everyone in our culture, till a generation or two ago, remembered all the little stories from the Old Testament.Ihano wrote:Let's see, let me think of more questions. OK: in Cuzeian religion, what religous/sociological role did or does the Count of Years play? Is it examined by scholars for all its possible implications, like the Bible? If not, how did people view it? How well are, or were, the common people acquainted with its details?
No, that's correct: it's short for Thinking Kind, i.e. an intelligent species.Ihano wrote:When the King of Ogres is introduced, you spell it "Kind of Ogres."
I don't know, but they strike me as the sort of things that would occur to anyone looking for divine improvements on predation. Early peoples know animals a lot better than most of us do, so I think it very possible that they could observe the economy with which predators hunt. If not, it's a generalization from their own good stewardship and sense of chivalry.Ihano wrote:I know it racks the mind to come up with believable religions and religious texts, and I couldn't in a long time do what you've done here. However, I suppose the one thing that feels a little false with me is the new qualities I?inos gave the animals to counter what Eca?as did. Protection and guile for the small, that makes a lot of sense, but "steward the prey and always leave a remnant," "long life and small fertility," "speed and prudence in the use of their claws"? This feels perhaps a little too informed by your knowledge in these fields; are societies at the level of the Cuzeians really aware of all these subtle ecological characteristics?
Oop, that's a typo. Thanks.Glenn Kempf wrote:Did Mavordaguendu dig out Ecr?setomurgo, or the other way around? (The former, it would appear.)
As for the Ents, drydic_guy, I'm certainly influenced by Treebeard's description of how the Ents talk about the Orcs. However, IIRC, his 'name' for the Orcs is really a description of them in Elvish. I liked the idea of having unanalyzable nine-syllable morphemes in Giantish.
True dat. I think I was confusing the modern period up to the mid-20C, when we didn't know much about ecosystems, with ancient times, when we knew much more.zompist wrote:Early peoples know animals a lot better than most of us do, so I think it very possible that they could observe the economy with which predators hunt.
So voy sur so?n otr?n cot?n ci-min?i e fsiy.
-
jburke
'Tis true, it's very Tolkienian; but remember that Tolkien stole the bulk of his creation myth from Milton. Milton was the guy who formulated dim and vague Christian traditions into the classic characters and situations we know now. I think Mark comments to the effect that he's working in the Christian tradition here. And when you mine in that shaft, it's hard to avoid similarities to Tolkien; and probably impossible.[/quote]Glenn Kempf wrote:I found the second section of the Count of Years more intriguing than the first; Part 1 was a little too straightforward, and a little too Tolkienian, for me.
Well, I'm using "celestial" more in the sense of "heavenly" than "in the sky". The Two Trees were the light of world at one point, emanating from the Blessed Realm. The Silmarils are that light, so. . . . Plus, while it's true that only one ended up in the sky, relatively late in its story, it seems to me there's a consistent feel of them as star-ish.jburke wrote:Not sure where you get the notion that the Silmarils were "three celestial lights." ("Three celestial lights" is a famous phrase found in the Rig Vega, which I doubt was much influence on Tolkien.) One Silmaril wound up on Earendil's brow in the sky; but another was thrown into the sea and another into a chasm. In what sense were they celestial generally?Similgu, Simillu, and Simiriu: The three stars of the Southern Crown
The Silmarils, the three celestial lights, that at one time adorned Morgoth's iron crown.
I really like the Count of Years so far!
The 'simple, na?ve" language is compelling. The image of the first Giant's simple delight in being is powerful for its simplicity. And the Ogres' straightforwardness (an almost Giantish word
) is funny without being farsical.Also its a neat inversion with each "Dark Lord", so to speak, being more evil because he's further from the divine light.
I generally try to come up with some constructive criticism, because a simple gushing, "oh it's great" is hardly useful, but I don't see anything yet.
Will the Cu?zi grammar and lexicon be available on the Virtual Verduria site anytime? (I know they're around somewhere; I just don't know where.)A grammar and lexicon of Cu?zi are available in Languages of Almea.
p@,
Glenn
EDIT: One "scientific" note: It occurs to me that the story of the stone-fleshed, rock-eating Giants might have been inspired (via the Cuezi? the iliu?) by the discovery of fossils--perhaps the fossilized bones of actual Gdeoni, a giant hominid species that existed previously, perhaps not--just as the remains of dinosaurs and mammoths in our world were sometimes identified by people as the bones of giants and dragons. Not that they were completely far off... --G.
There's a Word version available from the embassy page. I'll be creating a nice webified version sometime soonish, with a much expanded lexicon.Glenn Kempf wrote:Will the Cu?zi grammar and lexicon be available on the Virtual Verduria site anytime? (I know they're around somewhere; I just don't know where.)A grammar and lexicon of Cu?zi are available in Languages of Almea.
Interesting point on the fossils. I leave a lot of questions unanswered by saying that we can't dig up things on Almea.
Not really. They've obviously aware of ruined cities and castles and the like (such as Eleisa, or the ruins of Tothios staring across the river at the ruins of Erruk), and artists have recently discovered how damn picturesque they are. But they don't yet have the idea of systematicaly digging to uncover the past.Jaaaaaa wrote:or, more precisely, do the Almeans anywhere know of archaeology?
A suggestion
Would it be possible to start putting links to ALL the chapters at the tops of the Count of Years pages?
With only two chapters up so far, it's not much a problem yet, but as the chapters accumulate, accessing the new stuff at the end is going to become increasingly inconvenient the way it is now. ("Wait for page 1 to load, scroll down, click Onward, wait for page 2 to load, scroll down, click Onward, wait for page 3 to load, scroll down, click Onward, etc...")
With only two chapters up so far, it's not much a problem yet, but as the chapters accumulate, accessing the new stuff at the end is going to become increasingly inconvenient the way it is now. ("Wait for page 1 to load, scroll down, click Onward, wait for page 2 to load, scroll down, click Onward, wait for page 3 to load, scroll down, click Onward, etc...")
Chapter 3 is up.
Some reactions:
- After reading the Cuzeians' account of the meeting of Iriand and Alana on Daurio and their home at Lake Berunor, I was startled to read in the Commentary that the iliu themselves recognize and inhabit those places; I had assumed that the passages were pure Cuzeian "Eretaldocentrism", with the Cuzei plugging their tales into the Plain; after all, the iliu are primarily ocean-dwelling, and "vacated 'Lauie' [Daurio--sp?] voluntarily," as if it was not that important. The fact that the iliu themselves apparently revere Deep Lake and Lake Berunor, however, implies that these parts of the Count come directly from the ilii and reflect their own myths and/or history; they also imply that the ilii once lived much further inland. (I already find it fascinating that the ilii inhabit such a large stretch of the continental shelf--and, come to think of it, some fairly substantial land holdings: look at the iliu lands near Lean--they're as big as Verduria!), while remaining largely out of human sight.
In general, I can feel the attempt in this section (by Z) to present a description of the ilii both mythically and "scientifically," for the reader's benefit. One question: are the "nine other land habitats" of the ilii also in Erelae, or does this refer to the iliu settlements on other continents?
- The poetic passages in the tale of Iriand and Alana are a little reminiscent of the Biblical Song of Songs, although of course they get much more explicit. I get the impression that the later Arashei and (almost certainly) Eledhe, not to mention many elements of the Cadhinorian pagans, would be more prudish and uncomfortable with such passages; what have their reactions been like?
- Thanks for the mention of In the Land of Babblers. Good luck getting it printed on dead trees someday.
p@,
Glenn
- After reading the Cuzeians' account of the meeting of Iriand and Alana on Daurio and their home at Lake Berunor, I was startled to read in the Commentary that the iliu themselves recognize and inhabit those places; I had assumed that the passages were pure Cuzeian "Eretaldocentrism"
, with the Cuzei plugging their tales into the Plain; after all, the iliu are primarily ocean-dwelling, and "vacated 'Lauie' [Daurio--sp?] voluntarily," as if it was not that important. The fact that the iliu themselves apparently revere Deep Lake and Lake Berunor, however, implies that these parts of the Count come directly from the ilii and reflect their own myths and/or history; they also imply that the ilii once lived much further inland. (I already find it fascinating that the ilii inhabit such a large stretch of the continental shelf--and, come to think of it, some fairly substantial land holdings: look at the iliu lands near Lean--they're as big as Verduria!), while remaining largely out of human sight.In general, I can feel the attempt in this section (by Z) to present a description of the ilii both mythically and "scientifically," for the reader's benefit. One question: are the "nine other land habitats" of the ilii also in Erelae, or does this refer to the iliu settlements on other continents?
- The poetic passages in the tale of Iriand and Alana are a little reminiscent of the Biblical Song of Songs, although of course they get much more explicit. I get the impression that the later Arashei and (almost certainly) Eledhe, not to mention many elements of the Cadhinorian pagans, would be more prudish and uncomfortable with such passages; what have their reactions been like?
- Thanks for the mention of In the Land of Babblers. Good luck getting it printed on dead trees someday.
p@,
Glenn
All continents. You can find them on the map in verbio.htm.Glenn Kempf wrote:In general, I can feel the attempt in this section (by Z) to present a description of the ilii both mythically and "scientifically," for the reader's benefit. One question: are the "nine other land habitats" of the ilii also in Erelae, or does this refer to the iliu settlements on other continents?
Well, of course, anything in Scripture is all right, even if it's completely offensive somewhere else.Glenn Kempf wrote:- The poetic passages in the tale of Iriand and Alana are a little reminiscent of the Biblical Song of Songs, although of course they get much more explicit. I get the impression that the later Arashei and (almost certainly) Eledhe, not to mention many elements of the Cadhinorian pagans, would be more prudish and uncomfortable with such passages; what have their reactions been like?
It's certainly a popular passage with teenagers (much as Songs is... mmm, breasts!); their more uptight elders emphasize that it expresses (lawful) love and community. The contemporary Verdurian translation is also a bit vague in key spots.Those are the three approaches that had occured to me as well (apart from embracing the material): refraining from its reading, emphasizing the symbolic meaning, and censoring or bowdlerizing the text.zompist wrote:Well, of course, anything in Scripture is all right, even if it's completely offensive somewhere else.Glenn Kempf wrote:- The poetic passages in the tale of Iriand and Alana are a little reminiscent of the Biblical Song of Songs, although of course they get much more explicit. I get the impression that the later Arashei and (almost certainly) Eledhe, not to mention many elements of the Cadhinorian pagans, would be more prudish and uncomfortable with such passages; what have their reactions been like?
(And it IS true that the tale describes "lawful" love and marriage...although the equally traditional incest between Iriand and Alana's children a few paragraphs later (giving rise to the iliu lineages) might also make some uncomfortable.)
On a startlingly similar note, a few years ago I was part of a Bible study group that engaged in a formal study of the Song of Songs (the only one of its kind I've encountered), accompanied by a series of video tapes by a widely published preacher. While the material was discussed fairly frankly, here, too, the more wholesome aspects were stressed, and our group skipped the video that covered the most explicit material, primarily because the study group included some fairly young participants (as well as older ones), and because the young lady leading the group was frankly embarassed to delve too deeply into it.
p@,
Glenn
I sort of like the Count of Years so far. I will enjoy it more when it gets to history.
As for the first gōutāne, I think you would have better put the passage in Verdurian, if not Cadhinor, for the same reasons they used to put such passages in Latin. It made me
and 
and giggle at the same time. Is this the normal reaction of Verdurians to it?
The problem is that in English there are no high words for the sexual organs or act that are suitable for formal use like this. The ?Anglo-Saxon? ones would make the poem sound pornographic, and the ?Latin? ones sound silly outside a medical context. Even if Cadhinor suffers from the same problem, 1. we?re not native speakers of Cadhinor, so of course it all sounds high and formal to us, and 2. the mental effort of translating from
Cadhinor would help to dampen the sheer sexuality of the passage.
By the way, you could have avoided the problems with ď and ť not showing up quite right by using ? and ?. Sometimes you just have to do without consistency in accented characters
As for the first gōutāne, I think you would have better put the passage in Verdurian, if not Cadhinor, for the same reasons they used to put such passages in Latin. It made me
and and giggle at the same time. Is this the normal reaction of Verdurians to it?The problem is that in English there are no high words for the sexual organs or act that are suitable for formal use like this. The ?Anglo-Saxon? ones would make the poem sound pornographic, and the ?Latin? ones sound silly outside a medical context. Even if Cadhinor suffers from the same problem, 1. we?re not native speakers of Cadhinor, so of course it all sounds high and formal to us, and 2. the mental effort of translating from
Cadhinor would help to dampen the sheer sexuality of the passage.
By the way, you could have avoided the problems with ď and ť not showing up quite right by using ? and ?.
Sometimes you just have to do without consistency in accented characters Teenaged ones, maybe.Shm Jay wrote:As for the first go?uta?ne, I think you would have better put the passage in Verdurian, if not Cadhinor, for the same reasons they used to put such passages in Latin. It made me
I kind of figured I embarrassed some of you. Sorry about that, but it wouldn't be right to bowdlerize the text, and thus misrepresent the culture. The Cuzeians could be startlingly candid about sexuality.
(As could many terrestrial cultures besides our own. Can you imagine a modern Bible translation that uses the word "piss", as the King James Version does?)
Unfortunately, they look horrible on my Mac.Shm Jay wrote:By the way, you could have avoided the problems with d<caron> and t<caron> not showing up quite right by using <eth> and <thorn>.
Was there ever a Cadhinorian version of this stuff? Don't forget that the Cadhinorians persecuted the Cuzeian religion for centuries, so why should it's followers translate the Holy Scriptures into their language?Shm Jay wrote:The problem is that in English there are no high words for the sexual organs or act that are suitable for formal use like this. The “Anglo-Saxon” ones would make the poem sound pornographic, and the “Latin” ones sound silly outside a medical context. Even if Cadhinor suffers from the same problem, 1. we’re not native speakers of Cadhinor, so of course it all sounds high and formal to us, and 2. the mental effort of translating from
Cadhinor would help to dampen the sheer sexuality of the passage.
And how do you get the idea that the Count of Years should sound "high"? Mark's idea was to present it the way the people of it's time saw it, and the Count of Years wasn't seen as high and formal by it's authors and first readers (nor were the Bible or Shakespeare).