The Rogues

[dunomapuka]

<3

I enjoyed this a lot. It was interesting to finally have the dark and unexplored reaches of Arcél opened up to us, a bit. I'm still trying to make sense of all that we've learned about the culture.

So the gender roles are (more or less?) reversed in this Northern area, but not the South.

Kâ's temple sounds like something in between the Mesoamerican ones and Angkor Wat.

This is all just so cool. I was sort of skeptical when you got the survey results and you hinted you wanted to write more stories, but it really does give the culture some depth (I would love to see one from Skouras). And it's fun.

Can you throw me some tidbits of information about the different ethnic groups?

[dunomapuka]

I should also add how cleverly written it is that you assume they're both men until the farmer says “I’m very so grateful to you women.” And it just hits you like a ton of bricks.

[Glenn]

Ouch! Now you've given it away...



I just finished reading myself -- very interesting. (And very cinematic, BTW; I could see this as a TV episode.) I won't say much right now, but I hope that you have more stories (and more about Arcél) in store for the future.

p@,
Glenn

[con quesa]

Alas, I do not right now have time to do more than skim the first half. Very interesting though - this looks to be a truly matriarchial society. Can't wait to see more of Arcel.

[Krsont]

very interesting first look at Arcél. I especially liked the stuff about the matriarchal society. Also this caught my eye:

“Is there more?”

“Probably, but we’d have to hire a troop of elcari to dig it out.”

There are Elcari in Arcél? I was under the impression they only existed in Ereláe.

[Glenn]

There are Elcari in Arcél? I was under the impression they only existed in Ereláe.

If you look at the world map on the "Descent of the Lesuinae" (sp.) page, you will see that there are elcari (marked in red) on most of the continents, including a large area in Arcél. (I do think that Mark once indicated that the murtani, as an offshoot of the elcari, only exist in Ereláe, however.)

p@,
Glenn

[Krsont]

There are Elcari in Arcél? I was under the impression they only existed in Ereláe.

If you look at the world map on the "Descent of the Lesuinae" (sp.) page, you will see that there are elcari (marked in red) on most of the continents, including a large area in Arcél. (I do think that Mark once indicated that the murtani, as an offshoot of the elcari, only exist in Ereláe, however.)

p@,
Glenn

er, oh yeh. Obviously didn't look too closely.

[Herra Ratatoskr]

I like it! Very well written, Zompist, and very creative. The whole idea of a cult of betrayal which gives immortality, it's creepy, but cool. Might we be seeing more of Ŋar and Fánao in the future? They seem like quite a fun pair.

[Penelope]

Heh. What I really liked was that I started out wondering about the gender of the protagonists - I try to be careful not to assume things like that - and yet by the time "I'm so very grateful to you women" came along I'd still forgotten and managed to fall into the assumption that they were both male. Very nice.

Now, I'll be very interested to learn about why this culture ended up designating war as a female profession.

[Glenn]

Thanks, Penelope and WMillier! I'm glad to see a few more comments in this thread -- I'd hate to think that there were only a few of us paying attention to it...

Might we be seeing more of Ŋar and Fánao in the future? They seem like quite a fun pair.

Ŋar and Fánao reminded me of Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (primarily because I'd just been reading about them.) Or, unsurprisingly, Xena and Gabrielle.

Now, I'll be very interested to learn about why this culture ended up designating war as a female profession.

I agree -- including the contrast between the more matriarchal north and the more patriarchal south (Uytai). (And there are evidently differences within these regions as well, as Ŋar and Fánao's discussion indicates.) As folks have said already, it would be neat to hear more details of the cultures involved.

On reflection, the females-as-fighters idea also reminded me of an excerpt I read online from one of Catherine Asaro's science fiction/romance novels, set on a planet with a primarily matriarchal society, especially where politics and the military are concerned. One of the characters, referring to an outside society with a relatively more male-dominated culture (i.e., more "normal" from the standpoint of a 20th-century Western reader), comments, "Half their military are men. An army like that can't be that harsh..."

Mark's scenario, however, seems both less extreme and considerably more realistic than Asaro's. (Of course, he's not writing a sci-fi romance novel either. ) In their discussion, Ŋar and Fánao acknowledge the potential of male strength and agression (as used by, e.g., the Môlo), even if they remain dubious of male fighting skills and finesse.

I notice that I've been dwelling on the gender issue, rather than the story itself. It's certainly more hack-n-slash than we've seen from you to date (another bit that reminded me of Lieber, as well as Almea's D&D roots). In terms of the Temple of Kâ, the part that interested me, more than the cult and its followers, was the speaking skulls and trapped spirits of the dead priestesses -- ghosts are something we've only had a few glimpses of in Almea. (I assume from the context that they were trapped by the power of Kâ's gem, a betrayal they may not have expected in life -- the ghost who talks most to the protagonists certainly seems to have learned and become repentent.)

p@,
Glenn

[zompist]

Ŋar and Fánao reminded me of Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (primarily because I'd just been reading about them.)

Bingo! The story is actually a tribute to Lieber's characters (and even imitates some of his style).

I pity the eventual translator of this story into French, since it would be extremely hard to maintain the main surprise.

I'll have more on the development of Be society later. The female domination there is ancient, though there is an interesting interregnum called the Men's Empire.

'Belesao' is a compound: Be is the entire ethnocultural group and Le is the name of the country (technically, the name of an old dynasty); sao is 'country'. It's as if Russia was named Slavic-Romanov-Land.

[Glenn]

Ŋar and Fánao reminded me of Fritz Lieber's Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser (primarily because I'd just been reading about them.)

Bingo! The story is actually a tribute to Lieber's characters (and even imitates some of his style).

Aha! This explains a great deal, I think...

I pity the eventual translator of this story into French, since it would be extremely hard to maintain the main surprise.

I hadn't thought of that; the Russian translator will have the same problem, of course...

'Belesao' is a compound: Be is the entire ethnocultural group and Le is the name of the country (technically, the name of an old dynasty); sao is 'country'. It's as if Russia was named Slavic-Romanov-Land.

That explains one comment from the story: "Of course they were Be; Le, even." I had puzzled over the exact meaning of that one.

Looking forward to hearing more about Belesao (and elsewhere)!

p@,
Glenn

[Shm Churmey]

A nice, clever and entertainingly creepy story, definitely my favourite story of yours. And it's nice to hear from Arcél

I pity the eventual translator of this story into French since it would be extremely hard to maintain the main surprise.

It could be done, I think. Voyageur ("Traveller")is fortunately gender-neutral, and that's how the protagonists are referred to in the first paragraph; then it's just a matter of avoiding pronouns entirely until we learn their first names. Maybe it would sound a little awkward.

[kodé]

'Belesao' is a compound: Be is the entire ethnocultural group and Le is the name of the country (technically, the name of an old dynasty); sao is 'country'. It's as if Russia was named Slavic-Romanov-Land.

Thanks for the explanation. I've always thought 'Belesao' was quite close to 'Belshai' (sorry, no hacheks). However, you've apparently made the mistake of piqueing my curiosity...

So, what do these names sound like? What do the acutes and the circumflexes do?

When is this story set? Is it contemporary with "modern" Verduria, or farther back, say in Cadhinor or even Cuzêian times?

Is the cult of Kâ similar to other religions in Arcél? How does it tie into the history? (I can wait for the answer--years if necessary)

I must admit, I've concentrated more on the historical aspects (i.e., those more terran-like) than the magical ones. Does magic play a bigger role in the history of places outside Erelaé? Is it more important in technologically primitive times, or does it advance along with regular (i.e., terran) technology?

What about the other species? How much influence do the ilii or the ktuvoki have in the area? Apparently the elcari are around, doing their thing, presumably violating human language universals...

And lastly, was this written from a God's eye view, or from that of an "actual" Arcélian (or even a Verdúrian "gone native"?)

EDIT: Oh yeah, I liked the writing, though I haven't read much fiction, especially con-fiction, in a while. I usually just stick to non-fiction, or even con-non-fiction (e.g., the Historical Atlas, which is an inspiration to us all, an e-difice, if you will)

[zompist]

So, what do these names sound like? What do the acutes and the circumflexes do?

They're tone marks. Acute is rising; circumflex is rising-falling; unmarked is a mid-low tone (but subject to a lot of tone sandhi). The language has two e's and two o's; the two e's in Belesao happen to be closed /e/, while the last vowel is open /O/.

When is this story set? Is it contemporary with "modern" Verduria, or farther back, say in Cadhinor or even Cuzêian times?

This may be subject to change; but my working hypothesis is that it's set in the 3300s (that is, a century ago)-- essentially, just before the colonial era. Arcél was in contact with the western powers but not yet greatly influenced by them (except in Fananak). The reference to tea ties into this-- tea was always traded in Arcél, but it didn't become the most valuable substance on the planet till Kebri and Verduria discovered it.

Can't say much about the religions or the magical tradition yet. (Though I'll say that the the pseudo-encyclopedic tone I maintain for Almeological material somewhat distorts my vision of Almea. It's not suppsed to be an entirely rationalist world; magic does work there, though not as an exploitable technology as in D&D.)

[butsuri]

Very nice. I too was reminded of Lieber. A couple of extremely minor criticisms came to mind as I was reading, but overall very impressive and solidly entertaining. I look forward to having more of the background filled in as it becomes available.

[Legros]

Voyageur ("Traveller")is fortunately gender-neutral, and that's how the protagonists are referred to in the first paragraph

Not for me: I say voyageuse very often. Of course, if there are one hundred voyageuses and one voyageur among them, it is grammatically correct to refer to the whole lot as les voyageurs

[Shm Churmey]

Voyageur ("Traveller")is fortunately gender-neutral, and that's how the protagonists are referred to in the first paragraph

Not for me: I say voyageuse very often. Of course, if there are one hundred voyageuses and one voyageur among them, it is grammatically correct to refer to the whole lot as les voyageurs

Ah, I should have thought about that - I tend to consider words gender-neutral where others wouldn't (that got me once or twice in trouble, actually).

[Mornche Geddick]

I wondered if Ka was some kind of evil version of the Vyozhi. It's intriguing that destroying the gem exorcised her. Was she destroyed, or did it break her link to the "human world"?

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

As for a French translation, which I could try, there are tons of ways to keep the characters in gender-neutral incertainity. First of all, I think, would be to use their names, which can obscur everything. One must also avoid any adjective directly refering to them. Indeed, a masteful translation is never done by making word-to-word translation. I know it too well. Here's a small try :

On a lonely jungle road, half-overgrown, two travelers trudged ahead, already muddy and weary from a long day’s march, and with little prospect of reaching any soft bed that night. They carried their bows in their hands, not so much for fear of the reported bandits, but as their sole hope of having meat in their evening meal, since they were heartily sick of né porridge.

Au coeur d'une jungle envahissante, deux individus peinaient à avancer. On les voyait traînant leurs pied sur une route à demi-recouverte, fatigués et enbourbés par une longue journée de marche. Pour eux, il n'y avait plus beaucoup d'espoir de rejoindre un bon lit douillet pour passer la nuit. Chacun tenaient dans leurs mains un arc, pas tant par la peur de bandits qu'on a dit errés par là, mais comme seul espoir d'avoir un peu de viande pour leur repas du soir, les deux personnes étant écoeurées du gruau à la Né.

[Ofeig]

Hm, the plot is nearly identical to a short story by Clark Ashton Smith - if I'm mistaken... Or am I?

[BGMan]

I should also add how cleverly written it is that you assume they're both men until the farmer says “I’m very so grateful to you women.” And it just hits you like a ton of bricks.

I had a nagging feeling that they were women when I was reading their description... I guess because of the one's "long black hair" and the other's "large eyes of the native Le". But their dialogue was definitely more manly, so I switched to thinking of them as male.

I didn't get hit with a ton of bricks... a slap with a wet fish, perhaps.

Hm, the plot is nearly identical to a short story by Clark Ashton Smith - if I'm mistaken... Or am I?

Dunno Clark Ashton Smith. I did think of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. AND I.J. and the Last Crusade. AND Lord of the Rings. AND Lara Croft. AND DOOM 3. Yeah, I know...

BG

[butsuri]

I was reminded of Smith, and Robert E. Howard for that matter, as well as Lieber. (Lieber more than others mainly because of the two protagonists.) "Seek treasure in ruined temple, encounter supernatural horror" is a fairly standard plot -- I don't know if Ofeig has in mind a CAS story with a more specific resemblance. (Most of his short fiction's listed here, if you want to try to track it down. There used to be complete texts, too, but they're mostly just synopses now.)

[Ofeig]

I was thinking of "The Tale of Satampra Zeiros" or something similar. It's been a while since I read it, so... But, it's similar to "Rouges" if I'm not mistaken.

[butsuri]

Ah, yes, I know the story. It's online, if anyone wants to make their own comparison: The Tale of Satampra Zeiros. There are similarities - two thieves decide to loot an old temple, which turns out to contain something nasty. But, again, that's a pretty standard sword-and-sorcery plot. I'm sure one could find half a dozen instances of Conan or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser doing something along those lines.