The Count of Years

[zompist]

the poor were important to Iainos, but that virtue was not a guarantee of prosperity.

that part at least reminds me of Christianity. Interesting...

It's not coincidence-- the Jews had a really really bad half a milennium, and couldn't keep believing that God was going to give them happiness in this life.

[Penelope]

Whoops, that was me. Oh, and I'd just like to stress - this is entirely supposition on my part, and more than possibly completely wrong.

No, that's definitely right about Judaism at least. Not only does Judaism not concern itself much with the afterlife, there are lots of Jewish groups with contradictory beliefs about it - some extremely conservative groups believe in reincarnation; some believe that there are different parts of the soul and you could have one part staying with the body after death and one part reincarnated and one part in Paradise and one part in Gehinnom and one part temporarily joined with a living person...

Buddhism's another, at least for some sects of Buddhism. Yeah, you'd think reincarnation is pretty integral to Buddhism. But Buddhism also teaches that the self essentially does not exist, and at least some sects refuse to answer the question "If I don't have a self, then exactly what gets reincarnated and why should I care?" And there's also the question of whether nirvana means simply nonexistence, which according to one story the Buddha simply refused to answer when it was directly posed to him.

Daoism may be a different story - there are lots of rather odd Daoist practices aimed at (as I understand it) attaining physical immortality; but frankly I've never really understood that, so I can't tell you much about it.

[zompist]

Chapter 5 is now up.

[Glenn]

The tale of Anmas "enticing" away the first murtani is quite different from the account given elsewhere of a split between the elcari following a monotheistic belief in Khemthu-Nor (sp?), and the mutani as polytheists/demon-worshippers, beginning with a mad elcarin leader who proclaimed himself a god. I presume that multiple accounts exist (probably even among the elcari, considering how ancient the real events were), and the Count of Years draws on one of these. Yes?

p@,
Glenn

[zompist]

The tale of Anmas "enticing" away the first murtani is quite different from the account given elsewhere of a split between the elcari following a monotheistic belief in Khemthu-Nor (sp?), and the mutani as polytheists/demon-worshippers, beginning with a mad elcarin leader who proclaimed himself a god. I presume that multiple accounts exist (probably even among the elcari, considering how ancient the real events were), and the Count of Years draws on one of these. Yes?

Heh, I just ran into that account, in the board postings that people compiled for me. To tell the truth, I'd forgot all about the mad elcar. But indeed, I'll probably use the story for another tradition. (Khemthu-N?r is the Elkar?l name for their god, however.)

[Raphael]

The tale of Anmas "enticing" away the first murtani is quite different from the account given elsewhere of a split between the elcari following a monotheistic belief in Khemthu-Nor (sp?), and the mutani as polytheists/demon-worshippers, beginning with a mad elcarin leader who proclaimed himself a god. I presume that multiple accounts exist (probably even among the elcari, considering how ancient the real events were), and the Count of Years draws on one of these. Yes?

The murtani might have become polytheists/demon-worshippers as a consequence of being enticed away by said mad elcarin leader, and it's possible that he was later re-interpreted as having been Anmas. Perhaps most of his original followers were young people?

Mark, are you sure that iron-age societies knew that there were times when they didn't have all their metals yet, and in wich order they discovered them?

[zompist]

Mark, are you sure that iron-age societies knew that there were times when they didn't have all their metals yet, and in wich order they discovered them?

No one needed to know the future... the elcari numbered the Noble Elements as they encountered them; and the Cuzeians learned them from the elcari. (They knew about iron through trade, before they could make it themselves.)

It's not that hard to remember the order-- the classical Greeks, for instance, knew that their ancestors of the Homeric period had bronze but not iron weapons.

[So Haleza Grise]

I love it! It's definitely the best chapter yet.

The whingeing of the elcari as they move into different settlements is very amusing. It does have quite a distinctive feel to it: with an elcarin outlook.

I wonder how later Cuezians would take details of elcari tasting metal; they'd most probably brush it off with a shake of the head - crazy elcari.

It seems that uesti are going to be the only race left without an evil counterpart . . . but i suppose there's more than enough evil humans around the place.

So the elcari themselves credit the discovery of gold to the ilii?

[Jaaaaaa]

Mmm... metal... yummy...

Great chapter! I like the thing with the Elcari looking for a new home too.

WHats the Cuezi word for Ktuvok, by the way? I thought i remembered hearng it, but if I did I can't remember it. Nyeh.

[eodrakken]

I'm a little puzzled by the reaction to the Elcari's tasting metal. I know what metal tastes like, and can distinguish it from the taste of, say, an ordinary rock. The mention of that ability in the Count of Years didn't strike me as weird. Or did you mean they can tell exactly what kind of metal it is?

[zompist]

So the elcari themselves credit the discovery of gold to the ilii?

It does seem like something they'd like to claim credit for, but that's the problem with elder races--they're bigger, they discover gold, get to stay up later, etc. (On the other hand, this isn't necessarily the only elcarin version of events...)

WHats the Cuezi word for Ktuvok, by the way?

Amnigo (literally 'child of Amna:s').

Or did you mean they can tell exactly what kind of metal it is?

The idea is that they can distinguish various minerals, ores, and metals by taste.

[Jaaaaaa]

Amnigo (literally 'child of Amna:s').

thx. Nice, simple etymology. I like those

[Ihano]

I wonder how later Cuezians would take details of elcari tasting metal; they'd most probably brush it off with a shake of the head - crazy elcari.

Actually, when I read this, I assumed it meant she was biting the gold to test if it was real -- or at least a strange way of saying it. Maybe that's what some Cuezians might think.

A question: Back then, when Cuezi didn't have all that much complicated technology, what did they take to be the meaning of "machine"? Did they connect it, say, with siegecraft, or was there a different concept?

For that matter, are thinkers of the present identifying new inventions with the "machines" of the Count of Years? For that matter, are the same words used?

Your inquisitive servant,
Ihano

[So Haleza Grise]

For that matter, are thinkers of the present identifying new inventions with the "machines" of the Count of Years? For that matter, are the same words used?

Well, the Old Verdurians mustn't have had a high opinion of machinery - witness the derivation of modern nr?sk from niruises.

Oh, and Happy New Year all! Living where I do, I imagine it'll take 15 hours or so for most of you to catch up

[zompist]

Oh, and Happy New Year all! Living where I do, I imagine it'll take 15 hours or so for most of you to catch up

Yah, it's 4 pm on the 30th here. So you must be 32 time zones ahead of me.

[So Haleza Grise]

Oh, and Happy New Year all! Living where I do, I imagine it'll take 15 hours or so for most of you to catch up

Yah, it's 4 pm on the 30th here. So you must be 32 time zones ahead of me.

*Ahem*. It was 8 am on the 31st when i posted that. . . so not quite, but I didn't think i'd be posting til afterwards.

But there you go.

Oh, and now it's 4:25. Damn daylight saving, why does Queensland have to be out of sync with the rest of the east coast . . . oh wait, we've already had this discussion somewhere.

Anyway, Bonum Annum Novum!

[zompist]

A question: Back then, when Cuezi didn't have all that much complicated technology, what did they take to be the meaning of "machine"? Did they connect it, say, with siegecraft, or was there a different concept?

The first 'machines' the Cuzeians encountered were the primitive tools of the Methaiun: the wheel, carts, horse-drawn mills. Later they learned how to make pulleys, catapults, water clocks, and various toys and devices for the stage. They also saw cranes, gold-sifting machinery, drills, and other interesting things among the elcari. The collective word for all of this was n?da:uas, from n?do 'wheel' (itself a borrowing from Methaiun).

For that matter, are thinkers of the present identifying new inventions with the "machines" of the Count of Years? For that matter, are the same words used?

The Verdurian word is niru; it would both be used to translate the Cu?zi word in the Count of Years, and to refer to contemporary industrial inventions. The connection has certainly occurred to them. Verdurians of a philosophical bent like to say that they've caught up with the glorious deeds of the ancients, or else that they're repeating what was obviously a catastrophic mistake.

[Guest]

Do you plan to post the updated Cuezian grammar after you've finished the Count of Years? Would it be in a format similar to the Cadhinorian one, or not?

[zompist]

Do you plan to post the updated Cuezian grammar after you've finished the Count of Years? Would it be in a format similar to the Cadhinorian one, or not?

Yes, I'm giving the grammar a once-over to make sure everything works. It won't be a 'native' grammar like the Cadhinorian one tho'; that would be a whole 'nother writing project. It's an exhaustive and perhaps exhausting description with examples and lexicon, like those of other Almean languages.

[So Haleza Grise]

You mention that elcari can only marry from other lineages. How do they inherit their lineages - is it patrilineal?

[So Haleza Grise]

You mention that elcari can only marry from other lineages. How do they inherit their lineages - is it patrilineal?

Or do female elcari inherit their lineage from their mother, and male ones from their father?

[zompist]

One of the lineages will formally receive a newly marriage couple, and the children will belong to it. This involves giving the couple substantial gifts, tools, animals, and a place to live, so it comes down to which lineage is most willing to make the investment.

In extraordinary circumstance, this might even be a lineage neither of the couple belongs to. For instance, if a lineage is almost wiped out by plague or war, it can, in effect, buy itself new heirs.

If a male marries young, his lineage usually receives the couple, while if he marries a second time and already has a child, his wife's lineage receives the couple (especially if it's her first marriage). But family politics, relative wealth and position, and the local state of the lineages can all affect this.

(As a clarification, an elcar's own lineage never changes, even if he or she is received into another lineage through marriage.)

[pne]

WHats the Cuezi word for Ktuvok, by the way?

Amnigo (literally 'child of Amna:s').

Amnigo: with long o, no?

[zompist]

WHats the Cuezi word for Ktuvok, by the way?

Amnigo (literally 'child of Amna:s').

Amnigo: with long o, no?

One amnigo, two amnigo:.

[Aidan]

One of the lineages will formally receive a newly marriage couple, and the children will belong to it. This involves giving the couple substantial gifts, tools, animals, and a place to live, so it comes down to which lineage is most willing to make the investment.

In extraordinary circumstance, this might even be a lineage neither of the couple belongs to. For instance, if a lineage is almost wiped out by plague or war, it can, in effect, buy itself new heirs.

If anyone's interested in the anthropology terms, this is technically ambilineal; so called for fairly obvious reasons.