So? Avisar? (Fanfic, I guess)

Neek · Post by **Neek** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:20 am

To read, go here.

It's not so much a fanfic as it is a story set in Verduria (so I'm not sure whether you can call it fan-fiction). Sadly, I'm not too familiar with the geography of Verduria, so I can't exactly place the story. The premise is a simple love story between two school girls, however I'm attempting to make it less about the love story or the lovers, but the random rambunctious adventures these two characters take--the story is told through Emia Andreii Zhiradi's perspective, who has a rather overactive imagination and a pension for cheesey fantasy novels. Sadly, the first chapter turned out to be much longer than I wanted to, so I fear that this story will have a slow start...

In a bit, I'll provide a Verdurian translation, but also footnotes... It's late, so goodnight.

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:28 am

The premise is a simple love story between two school girls

So we'll get to see the conservatism of Verduria in action as the main conflict. I wrote a fanfic set in Verduria once, but everyone said it was socialist propaganda.

Dudicon · Post by **Dudicon** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 10:41 am

Eddy the Great wrote:
The premise is a simple love story between two school girls
So we'll get to see the conservatism of Verduria in action as the main conflict. I wrote a fanfic set in Verduria once, but everyone said it was socialist propaganda.

Eh? Lesbian relationships in Verduria are quite common, and perfectly socially acceptable in the context of youthful fancy, though as the females involved grow older (essentially into marriage age), they are expected to take husbands like the rest of the country.

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:30 am

These Verdurians seem to have a left wing aspect they don't want anyone to know about.

I was told not to make fanfics because Mark wants complete control of his conworld. If my brilliant work on the quest for progress and equality was rejected, you know that you have to do yours brilliantly, much more so than I did.

Whimemsz · Post by **Whimemsz** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:18 pm

Eddy the Great wrote:If my brilliant work on the quest for progress and equality was rejected, you know that you have to do yours brilliantly, much more so than I did.

Don't worry, I'm sure he will.

Post by **zompist** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:56 pm

Eddy, I asked you to stop with your fiction because it had nothing to do with Verduria; it wasn't even close enough to be a parody or satire.

If anything, Nikolai has the opposite problem.

He's using Verdurian words where there's no great need for them... still, it's cute so far. (I wonder why a pagan girl has an Eledhe uncle, but perhaps he's an uncle by marriage.)

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 2:57 pm

It seems odd that Verduria would be so conservative and still allow lesbian relationships.

I think what really bothered Mark wasn't simply having a fanfic, but the fact that in mine, the basis of Verdurian society is changed. If someone made a fanfic about Terra Pvlchra going from anarchism to having a state again, I'd be rather

.

Post by **zompist** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:08 pm

Eddy the Great wrote:It seems odd that Verduria would be so conservative and still allow lesbian relationships.

"Conservative" simply isn't a useful adjective to apply to Verduria. It's another culture on another planet; American political terminology just doesn't apply.

Politics (including the politics of sex) flows from culture and history. Your ideas are well within the expected range of variation for people in 21st century America. It would be pretty pointless for you to go back to (say) feudal Europe and condemn its feudalism. Feudalism was a natural outgrowth of the culture of the times and the history of the states involved.

The only sort of social comparison that really makes sense is between different cultures or subcultures in the same region at the same time. By the standards of its own time and continent, present-day Verduria is quite progressive. (For that matter, compared to Europe at a similar level of technology, it's significantly more liberal-- e.g. it has more religious freedom, and women can vote.)

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 3:29 pm

True, Verduria isn't nearly as misogynistic as I portrayed it. It would have been better for me to focus on the social classes.

Raphael · Post by **Raphael** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:48 pm

Eddie, there are more possible political positions in the world than just either agreeing with conservatives on everything or agreeing with left-wingers on everything, so there's no practical reason why a society shouldn't allow lesbian relationships while being conservative on other issues.

Mark, perhaps Nikolai uses Verdurian words so often in order to practise the language.

Nikolai, hows often do you think you'll post new chapters?

Neek · Post by **Neek** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:22 pm

zompist wrote:If anything, Nikolai has the opposite problem. He's using Verdurian words where there's no great need for them... still, it's cute so far. (I wonder why a pagan girl has an Eledhe uncle, but perhaps he's an uncle by marriage.)

As it turns out, the girl's father also has an Eledhe name (Andrey), as does the older, married sister (Raheli)--even Emia is an Eledhe name. However, in Andrey's case it was also his grandfather's name (who was Eledhe), so was handed down traditionally. Raheli and Emia are named after distant relatives. However, Petro is Eledhe.

Eddy: To write a story specifically about a lesbian relationship between two girls would be rather pointless to me, considering (as was said) this is not a social problem to the Verdurians--it would be no more than writing a love story between two people, which isn't much my thing. But it does make wonder--looking at both the Cuzeian and Cadhinorian beliefs, is this sort of open opinion of sexuality a stratum of Eastern cultures (or at least the Plains cultures). Do the Barakhinei and Isma?n have equal opinions, or differing? (For that matter, do the Kebri, as well, hold this? Dhekhnami? Xurnese?) There love story is something else, though, since it focuses more around their interaction and their overactive imaginations, their silly 'adventures' and so forth.

I think Raphael had it right about the word-choice. Tackling the main words gets me used to knowing them (I didn't want to translate a concept like 'buroni,' or 'ftacon' etc. since I felt there wasn't an appropriate equivalent--but mira, piro, vlay, vlaya, shadosh, etc. were just translations I felt like using, but probably shouldn't have.)

But each new chapter, however, may take some time or not, depending on how often I work on them, how much I can get done, and how much I'm overly satisfied (especially with figuring small details out. These 4 pages are the product of 2 months work! And I've still *no* idea where this story is taking place!)

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Mon Dec 22, 2003 9:18 pm

Eddy the Great wrote:True, Verduria isn't nearly as misogynistic as I portrayed it. It would have been better for me to focus on the social classes.

Much though I hate to stir up this discussion any futher (especially since I wasn't part of the previous round), I want to add the following.

Eddy: In addition to the discussion of the perspectives and complexities of Verdurian society above, please note that by far the most advanced race on Almea, and one that is looked upon with awe and admiration by the Verdurians and their forebears (as well as many other cultures), is the ilii--who are communal and egalitarian, who show perfect tolerance toward different lifestyles among their people, who do not commit violence or oppression against one another (although they fight fiercely when attacked), who have no nudity taboo or similar restrictions, and whose society, as far as I can tell, enjoys equality (not necessarily homogeneity) between males and females, and is tolerant of both homosexual and heterosexual relationships.

The ilii are not human; their mindset is not a human one, and their society may be unattainable by humans, but it still exists within the context of Almea; it is described there, and held by some there as an ideal.

Personally, I've always considered the ilii to be as much a reflection of Mark's actual views as any of the other facets of Almea--the Verdurians and other human cultures, who reflect much of Earth's own history, the elcari, the flaids, and all the rest.

Nikolai's own story, as he says, focuses much more on the human element--the characters as individuals. I think it shows quite a bit of promise, although, IMHO, the use of Verdurian terms might be a teensy bit excessive at times.

p@,
Glenn

Post by **zompist** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 3:11 pm

Nikolai wrote:But it does make wonder--looking at both the Cuzeian and Cadhinorian beliefs, is this sort of open opinion of sexuality a stratum of Eastern cultures (or at least the Plains cultures). Do the Barakhinei and Isma?n have equal opinions, or differing? (For that matter, do the Kebri, as well, hold this? Dhekhnami? Xurnese?)

I see that I didn't answer this. The descriptions of Verdurian attitudes toward gays and lesbians (on the paganism page and the culture test) would apply to Cadhinorian cultures generally, including Barakhun and Ismahi, with some complications. Barakhinei girls don't generally go to avisari, for instance, so lesbianism isn't as common. Kebri isn't very different, but prefers to keep all sorts of sexuality invisible in public (but as a consequence, almost anything goes in private).

Xurno is probably the most open to homosexuality, even more than our own culture.

(Hmm, I had some notes on this at home-- I should check them.)

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:10 pm

It's not too implausible. I've heard that many hunter gatherer societies were almost anarchist.

So Haleza Grise · Post by **So Haleza Grise** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:14 pm

Eddy the Great wrote:It's not too implausible. I've heard that many hunter gatherer societies were almost anarchist.

Depends on what you mean by "anarchist". That's one of those terms with a particularly slippery definition.

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:27 pm

Depends on what you mean by "anarchist". That's one of those terms with a particularly slippery definition.

Well, I've read that they often lacked even hereditary authority and they are mentioned in anarchist sources as often being close to anarchic. The !Kung are usually considered the best example of this.

So Haleza Grise · Post by **So Haleza Grise** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:33 pm

Eddy the Great wrote:
Depends on what you mean by "anarchist". That's one of those terms with a particularly slippery definition.
Well, I've read that they often lacked even hereditary authority and they are mentioned in anarchist sources as often being close to anarchic. The !Kung are usually considered the best example of this.

Traditional Australian aboriginal societies lacked any kind of hereditary authority; that is not at all to say that no authority existed, far from it. It surprises me to think that an anarchist would support the idea a traditional society such as this, because "freedom of action" scarcely exists at all. Rather, customary law forms an all-encompassing web, not something the individual can ever disregard or act indepedently from.

Aurora Rossa · Post by **Aurora Rossa** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:37 pm

Traditional Australian aboriginal societies lacked any kind of hereditary authority; that is not at all to say that no authority existed, far from it. It surprises me to think that an anarchist would support the idea a traditional society such as this, because "freedom of action" scarcely exists at all. Rather, customary law forms an all-encompassing web, not something the individual can ever disregard or act indepedently from.

They didn't support it. They said it showed that lack of hierarchial authority wasn't contrary to human nature, and in fact, could even be part of it.

Aidan · Post by **Aidan** » Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:54 pm

So Haleza Grise wrote:Traditional Australian aboriginal societies lacked any kind of hereditary authority; that is not at all to say that no authority existed, far from it. It surprises me to think that an anarchist would support the idea a traditional society such as this, because "freedom of action" scarcely exists at all. Rather, customary law forms an all-encompassing web, not something the individual can ever disregard or act indepedently from.

Very much so. Glenn? That was those possibly systematic downsides I mentioned in the last discussion of anarchic society. A state enforced behavior code is ultimately ineffectual at getting people to act the way it wants. This is a bad thing, it's ineffective at controling crime. This is a good thing, it allows a pluralistic society.

A culturally enforced behavior code, when working, is quite effective at getting people to follow it. This is a good thing, it can control undesirable behavior very well. This is a bad thing, it can define "undesirable behavior" pretty arbitrarily, forcing a monoculture.

As far as I've seen, anyway. I make no claims that this trade-off is impossible to work around; but it doesn't happen easily, I can tell you that.

Rory · Post by **Rory** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 6:53 am

Eddy the Great wrote:They said it showed that lack of hierarchial authority wasn't contrary to human nature, and in fact, could even be part of it.

Exactly. In my experience, very few things are contrary to "human nature". People often just assume that everyone thinks like them, when that's far from true.

Raphael · Post by **Raphael** » Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:30 am

Eddy the Great wrote:It's not too implausible. I've heard that many hunter gatherer societies were almost anarchist.

True. The problem for this comes with cultures that aren't hunter-gatherer any more.

As far as Verduria is concerned, a problem with a class-centered story set there would be that apparently, almost every class there is represented by or allied with one or more components of their political or social system, so that a class rebellion would probably be a lot more likely to result in some components getting stronger relative to the others than in an overthrow of the system.