The Count of Years

[Neek]

In the commentary it mentions Leri:manio and Tiblicol? as being found in various others text--might it that the pair also be subject of many Cuzeian stories, like an ethnic hero--a Hercules, maybe? Or is this reserved to someone else that we will later see? I also find the plucky na?vity of Tiblicol? rather interesting. Did Cuzeians have plucky comic reliefs to their heroes?

[edit]me english r gooder.

[Glenn]

You write in the commentary:

The text should not be taken as evidence that the 'real' Crumm?lligō had no gods; the Wede:i, Axunašin, and Skourenes were all polytheists.

I had initially taken the passage about the Crumm?lligō's atheism as a hint at Endajue, which, like Buddhism, does not include (or at least require) a concrete God or gods as such (and later Bezuxao, which rejected them altogether). However, the Historical Atlas makes mention of Endajue only in 1989 Z.E., with its origin in the Hermit Master's teachings put at 1700-1800 Z.E.--more than 2,000 years after the Cuzeians adopted the worship of Iainos. Perhaps there were some schools of thought or tendencies in that direction, even under Meshaism?
(Certainly the story as it stands would make sense to "modern-day" Eledhe who have heard of Endajue.)

p@,
Glenn

[So Haleza Grise]

In this story we seem to see some of the "maddening smugness" of the Cuzeians; the amusment with which they note pagan practices is funny in itself.

[zompist]

In the commentary it mentions Leri:manio and Tiblicol? as being found in various others text--might it that the pair also be subject of many Cuzeian stories, like an ethnic hero--a Hercules, maybe? Or is this reserved to someone else that we will later see? I also find the plucky na?vity of Tiblicol? rather interesting. Did Cuzeians have plucky comic reliefs to their heroes?

Heh. The Cuzeians loved epics, but they didn't write about Leri:manio... it'd be like writing adventure stories about Moses. Some of the favorite heroes are Anta:u and Isilie:, Sami:rex, Celo:usio, and the Sojourner (mentioned in the abstract on the Secret History page). One of these will appear in the Count of Years, though only briefly.

As for atheism, it'd be an anachronism... I suppose you could say it's a prophecy.

[pne]

Chapter 8 is up.

Heh... my favourite quote is

The Lale?sigō said nothing, but took the messenger and sacrificed him to Amnās.

[Iscun]

*ear-piercing scream*

Where's Chapter 9?? I can't survive without it!

[zompist]

Where's Chapter 9?? I can't survive without it!

Sorry, I'm running a bit late. It's long, and I have to make sure the commentary covers everything it should.

[zompist]

Chapter 9 is finally up.

[Glenn]

I notice that Part 9 contains some features reminiscent of the Old Testament: conquest and victory by a chosen people (in this case, in a land of their own choosing, not Iainos'), the question of intermarriage with the conquered peoples, and the warning that God's (Iainos') principles must be followed to retain His blessing.

One possible typo, at the very end: northerers --> northerners.

p@,
Glenn

[So Haleza Grise]

After reading, my mind is filled with questions . . .

Was the close bond that existed between the "little Cuezians" and their older brothers likely to have existed before the invasion, or was it simply a back-projection?

I'm slightly confused - the names that the Cuezians found are given in Methaiun forms, but wouldn't they actually have been in a southern Monkhayic language? - I imagine on the whole that we don't know an awful lot about Monkhayic languages' grammar, just isolated lexical items. Would I be right?

[zompist]

Was the close bond that existed between the "little Cuezians" and their older brothers likely to have existed before the invasion, or was it simply a back-projection?

Hmm, I should address this in the commentary somewhere. My feeling is that there was no real distinction before the Conquest; the Little Cuzeians are those who ended up outside the main river valleys, and thus remained much less urbanized and less numerous. They also seem to have remained more pastoralists than agriculturalists. They did follow the Cuzeian religion (though not very bookishly), and of course their languages were closely related to Cu?zi.

I'm slightly confused - the names that the Cuezians found are given in Methaiun forms, but wouldn't they actually have been in a southern Monkhayic language? - I imagine on the whole that we don't know an awful lot about Monkhayic languages' grammar, just isolated lexical items. Would I be right?

Yes; you're cleverly remembering that reconstructed Methaiun is based on Kebreni and the northern Monkhayic languages. In some cases we can see phonological differences that hint at what the southern tongues were like; e.g.

Lake Comus, Cu?zi Comex; cf. Meth. kaumu 'gods'.

We have the name of Metayu itself in its northern form, Methaigho; the southern form lacks the gh.

Cadhinor palaznos may be the best the Cadhinorians could do with Meth. palajno, but it's also possible that the j was expressed differently in the south.

The word Monkhayu would be northern Menekhada ('the people' plus honorific).

One reason the personal names recorded in the Count of Years are close to reconstructed Methaiun may be that it was easier for the compilers to check names with (say) Methaiun traders or diplomats from the still-existing northern lands, rather than hunting up the remaining speakers of southern languages (by then probably peasants with a shaky grasp of the events of two centuries ago).

[-]

Great stuff Z, as always.

One point is intriguing -- the conquered peoples use a phalanx formation in their armies, while the Cuzeians use a looser formation and are characterized by better drill and discipline.

This is, evidently, evocative of a certain era ancient Mediterranean warfare in our own time (though ISTR the phalanx was more an Iron Age innovation). What's interesting is that it inverts the traditional wisdom about Terrestrial warfare, which was that the Greek phalanx required drill and precision to execute without dissolving into a mess, and was thus at the root of what became the characteristically Greco-Roman tradition of military drill. Is there a particular reason for this inversion, or why it turns out differently on Almea?

[zompist]

This is, evidently, evocative of a certain era ancient Mediterranean warfare in our own time (though ISTR the phalanx was more an Iron Age innovation). What's interesting is that it inverts the traditional wisdom about Terrestrial warfare, which was that the Greek phalanx required drill and precision to execute without dissolving into a mess, and was thus at the root of what became the characteristically Greco-Roman tradition of military drill. Is there a particular reason for this inversion, or why it turns out differently on Almea?

We're reading different books, maybe? Or simply focussing on different times. In its origins (at least according to my sources), it was a type of army well suited to part-time campaigning without drill: so long as experienced soldiers were placed in the front and rear, the average soldier didn't have much to do but keep moving.

The Spartans and later the Thebans honed the phalanx into a more formidable thing, and undoubtedly they had both more discipline and more battle experience-- the best commanders were able to execute parade-ground turns in the midst of battle. The Metailo never got to this level (though as you'll see in chapter 10, they did improve).

[So Haleza Grise]

A documentary on the English Civil War i was watching last night seemed to agree with Z - the Roundhead's non-professional soldiers were the ones with the pike formations.

Which of course, were quite effective against cavalry.

[Aidan]

In its origins (at least according to my sources), it was a type of army well suited to part-time campaigning without drill: so long as experienced soldiers were placed in the front and rear, the average soldier didn't have much to do but keep moving.

Battle between the Greek hoplite miltias of the early poleis (correct pluralization?) mostly came down to a shoving match , but with shields and spears.

[Drydic]

poleis (correct pluralization?)

Close. Polēs. Tho there could have been a dialect with ei.

[Neek]

You know, speaking of Almean movie topics, I'd think this right here (Chapter 9) would make probably the best of them if you wanted Mel Gibson to play in it

Seriously, though, I found myself rooting for the Meitalo. I know the story is suppose to bolster the success of the Cuezi, but I wanted to see 'em Meits win a few times over (is there a slur for the Metailo?--I don't see too many slurs in Almea...does this mean racism doesn't exist or you just haven't really considered the humorous aplication of vulgar shorthand slangs?)

And because of you all, when I look at the Count of Years I now think of Mel Gibson in a US Civil War film, with everyone dressed like Greco-roman soldiers, placed in classical Almea. Thank you!

[Jaaaaaa]

I should think that there would be more racism as there are nonhumans there as well. But who knows.

[eodrakken]

I should think that there would be more racism as there are nonhumans there as well. But who knows.

Perhaps there would be less racism against other humans for that reason. There could be more of a sense of "we're all the same species, we have to stick together against the ktuvoks/murtani/etc.".

[Penelope]

I was taught poleis in two completely separate history classes, so I suspect it is valid for some dialect...although you can't rule out my professors just having an imperfect grasp of Greek grammar.

By the way, Mark, I haven't really had anything substantial to say about the CoY, but I am enjoying it.

[Nikolai(College)]

The Ilii, the Elcar, they all might be united as a single species together against their respective Ktuvoks and Murtani, so they might not think to hate one another. But if you recall, the humans lack an evil counterpart. They are the only species that don't have an evil counterpart (sans the Flaids--but who knows?), probably because they themselves can fall to their own devices without the aid of Amna:s.

But mark my word, there's some Cuezian out there mumbling īlī amnigō metailō avlota. (I bet my Cuezi is about as bad as my Verdurian!)

[hwhatting]

I was taught poleis in two completely separate history classes, so I suspect it is valid for some dialect...although you can't rule out my professors just having an imperfect grasp of Greek grammar.

Both your professors and Drydic_guy are right, depending on what you want to convey. A transliterated spelling would be poleis (with "e" for epsilon and "i" for iota). The pronunciation would be [pole:s] in classical Greek and [poli ( : )s] in NT Koine. (The ( : ) means that I don't remember exactly when the length distinction was lost in Greek ).
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

[Jaaaaaa]

There's no long i in Koine, only o: and e:, thus giving seven vowels: a e i o y* e: o:. So I assume the change was made during the reign of Alexander the Great. But I don't really know much about Greek diachronics, so I'm probably wrong.

*or u, depending on preferred transliteration.

[zompist]

You know, speaking of Almean movie topics, I'd think this right here (Chapter 9) would make probably the best of them if you wanted Mel Gibson to play in it

As who?

Seriously, though, I found myself rooting for the Meitalo. I know the story is suppose to bolster the success of the Cuezi, but I wanted to see 'em Meits win a few times over (is there a slur for the Metailo?--I don't see too many slurs in Almea...does this mean racism doesn't exist or you just haven't really considered the humorous aplication of vulgar shorthand slangs?)

Well, it is a holy book, it's not going to have slangy ethnic slurs in it. The normal slur for the Cadhinorians was neni-nemi 'babbler' (thus the name of Beretos's book). I don't think I have one for the Metailo.

I did feel while writing that the Metailo rather got the short end of the stick... they did nothing to provoke the Cuzeians, and the latter didn't even have the specious excuse of the Israelites of the Exodus, who claimed all of Canaan just because their ancestors-- a single family-- lived there. But I can't dismiss what most history looks like, either, or import present-day values into an alien culture.

[Jaaaaaa]

Well they did say that God gave them the land as well.