The Future

Drydic · Post by **Drydic** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:36 pm

Nikolai wrote:The art of Bushido is designed to defeat the enemy with just one fluid movement--generally the first move in a fight is the last--the fights we see in Samurai movies are rare. Rightly--samurai swords are built for slashing, swords like a bastard sword, long sword, or hell--even a zweihander--are built with a slashing edge but being followed by brute force. A sidelong blow from such a sword would probably breal the Katana, but that's if our western soldier lived long enough to get a blow in.

Quarter-inch plate covered by chain mail wielded by an especially mad Scottish Highlander. That should stop the Katana. And, of course, ARMED WITH A CLAYMORE!!!!

Xephyr · Post by **Xephyr** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:11 pm

A claymore?

Get serious.

Rory · Post by **Rory** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:53 pm

How do you wield armour?
And the Scottish preferred not to wear armour in combat (don't ask why, I think it might have been for freedom of movement).

Aren't Katanas also designed for stabs to exposed flesh, going in through the stomach and then up to the heart?
Or am I thinking of something else?

Jaaaaaa · Post by **Jaaaaaa** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:59 pm

Rory wrote:How do you wield armour?

Easy! You carrymit in your arm and whack people with it. It's quite painful, really... *demonstrates in his brother*

Warmaster · Post by **Warmaster** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:06 pm

Jaaaaaa wrote:
Rory wrote:How do you wield armour?
Easy! You carrymit in your arm and whack people with it. It's quite painful, really... *demonstrates in his brother*

you really are a nutter, you know that? *mutters to himself that Jhex should go and join the circus*

Jaaaaaa · Post by **Jaaaaaa** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:10 pm

Warmaster wrote:
Jaaaaaa wrote:
Rory wrote:How do you wield armour?
Easy! You carrymit in your arm and whack people with it. It's quite painful, really... *demonstrates in his brother*
you really are a nutter, you know that? *mutters to himself that Jhex should go and join the circus*

Me, a nutter? No...

Warmaster · Post by **Warmaster** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:14 pm

*panto style* "Oh yes you are!"

Jaaaaaa · Post by **Jaaaaaa** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 7:17 pm

Warmaster wrote:*panto style* "Oh yes you are!"

I'm not insane, I'm just different

(but isn't that the politically-correct term for "insane"?)

Aidan · Post by **Aidan** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 1:22 am

Drydic_guy wrote:Quarter-inch plate covered by chain mail wielded by an especially mad Scottish Highlander. That should stop the Katana. And, of course, ARMED WITH A CLAYMORE!!!!

Ah, the Highland Claymore. The only sword I'm aware of that was primarily a bludgeoning weapon.

Drydic · Post by **Drydic** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 1:57 am

Aidan wrote:
Drydic_guy wrote:Quarter-inch plate covered by chain mail wielded by an especially mad Scottish Highlander. That should stop the Katana. And, of course, ARMED WITH A CLAYMORE!!!!
Ah, the Highland Claymore. The only sword I'm aware of that was primarily a bludgeoning weapon.

Glory to the Highlanders!! Ever since Longshanks, those damn Englishers have thunk* they could just run ramshod across the northlands.

As Geoff wrote in the Scottish Culture Test,

Your country has never been conquered by a foreign nation, but it's been ruled by one particular one for long periods of time...

And no, Longshanks never really conquered them. And he never went anywhere near the Herbidies. Or the Orkneys.

*and no, I don't use this because I think it is a Scots form...that would be something like <thay haed thocht>. Please forgive any mistakes in the preceeding.

Oerjan · Post by **Oerjan** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 12:30 pm

zompist wrote:Hmm... The assertion about Japanese vs. European swords came from a book by Noel Perrin, which mentioned that a Japanese sword could chop a Spanish sword in half.

"Giving up the gun", no?

Put it like this: I very much doubt that Perrin has ever tried this experiment in reality. And I don't think that any owner of a real katana would care to try it, either... Japanese steel wasn't superior to high-quality Toledo blades, for example

I'm also not entirely convinced of Perrin's expertise in this particular subject - both because this sounds like yet another "let's hype up Japanese swords as far as possible" story, and because I can't find any other books by Perrin which are even remotely related to anything military - much less sword-making.

Those people I know who do know anything about swords (including a professional sword-smith, Peter Johnsson (http://www.algonet.se/~enda/swords.htm) who makes a living making copies of swords for museums and collectors) don't seem to believe in the Japanese sword quality hype... and when it comes to evaluating swords, I frankly trust their opinion far more than Mr. Perrin's

/Oerjan

ils incognito · Post by **ils incognito** » Sun Oct 12, 2003 2:30 pm

Oerjan wrote:
zompist wrote:Hmm... The assertion about Japanese vs. European swords came from a book by Noel Perrin, which mentioned that a Japanese sword could chop a Spanish sword in half.
"Giving up the gun", no?

Put it like this: I very much doubt that Perrin has ever tried this experiment in reality. And I don't think that any owner of a real katana would care to try it, either... Japanese steel wasn't superior to high-quality Toledo blades, for example

One present-day sword and fencing expert weighs in on the fantasy confrontation between European and Japanese medieval combat tactics here (going into the strengths and weaknesses of the katana and its comparability to various forms of European sword at some length -- there's also an interesting article there on the katana vs. the rapier).

He goes on at some length, but the basic jist is familiar. Anything I've ever seen from knowledgeable swordsmiths on the subject indicates that the katana was unmatched as a cutting weapon, but was far from magical -- its legendary cutting edge still had to find gaps in armour, couldn't cut through other swords, and was obtained via tradeoffs in terms of resilience and resistance to chipping.

Post by **zompist** » Mon Oct 13, 2003 1:08 am

ils incognito wrote:One present-day sword and fencing expert weighs in on the fantasy confrontation between European and Japanese medieval combat tactics here (going into the strengths and weaknesses of the katana and its comparability to various forms of European sword at some length -- there's also an interesting article there on the katana vs. the rapier).

Very nice article... it sounds like the European tradition has been underestimated recently. It's also interesting that both Europeans and Japanese increasingly turned their swords into lighter aesthetic objects. If the gun is ever replaced, I can imagine people creating delicate little rifles to shoot with.

- · Post by - » Mon Oct 13, 2003 7:13 pm

zompist wrote:
ils incognito wrote:One present-day sword and fencing expert weighs in on the fantasy confrontation between European and Japanese medieval combat tactics here (going into the strengths and weaknesses of the katana and its comparability to various forms of European sword at some length -- there's also an interesting article there on the katana vs. the rapier).
Very nice article... it sounds like the European tradition has been underestimated recently.

Yep -- something that endlessly irritates the ARMA guys.

Dearly as I love kung fu movies and Lone Wolf & Cub (and lKill Bill, BTW -- if you haven't seen it yet, see it!!), it's really too bad about the general overhyping of the Asian martial arts traditions. I sense a backlash building, for sure.

Rory · Post by **Rory** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:35 am

Jaaaaaa wrote:
Rory wrote:How do you wield armour?
Easy! You carrymit in your arm and whack people with it. It's quite painful, really... *demonstrates in his brother*

in your brother??

Drydic_Guy wrote:*and no, I don't use this because I think it is a Scots form...that would be something like <thay haed thocht>.

Hmmm... I'm not aware of any special Scots form of "thought"... /TQ?/ seems most likely, but I wouldn't be suprised to hear (especially in the highlands) /TQxt/.

Heh, reminds me of when I heard a recording of an Old English recitation, I thought it sounded like Dutch mixed with Scottish Western Isles.

Drydic · Post by **Drydic** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:08 pm

Rory wrote:
Jaaaaaa wrote:
Rory wrote:How do you wield armour?
Easy! You carrymit in your arm and whack people with it. It's quite painful, really... *demonstrates in his brother*
in your brother??

Drydic_Guy wrote:*and no, I don't use this because I think it is a Scots form...that would be something like <thay haed thocht>.
Hmmm... I'm not aware of any special Scots form of "thought"... /TQ?/ seems most likely, but I wouldn't be suprised to hear (especially in the highlands) /TQxt/.

According to my Scots grammar, that's about how it's pronounced. Just written in the Scots manner. And, that's just what my Scots grammar told me.

Jaaaaaa · Post by **Jaaaaaa** » Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:44 pm

Rory wrote: in your brother??

Why, yes; there were some oompa-loompas in his stomach he wanted me to get rid of, so I thought to myself, why not demonstrate how to wield armor at the same time?

(in reality, that was a typo for "on"... but hey)