The Ilii and Space Travel

[Mornche Geddick]

Zomp didn't mention faith, only belief. He might mean the Pratchett Principle in its weak form (as you've just stated it) but he's stated it in something very close to the strong form.

The ultra strong form of course, is found in the Discworld books.

'I wasn't to know there really is a Dragon of Unhappiness,' said Dibbler.
'I don't think there was until you convinced him that one exists,' said William.
The Truth

And faith is not simply strong belief, although I'll postpone that discussion to another post in order to stick to my original point, which is simply this. The universe does not reward beliefs or belief systems - only some of them. If you subscribe to a false belief system, the universe will catch up with you sooner or later.

A good example of a belief system which punishes the believer (while rewarding the casino owners!) is the Martingale. But sooner or later reality will catch up with the casino owners too, because public opinion will turn against them.

And if you want another example, right now the universe is punishing us all, because the people who had charge of the economy adopted a false belief system.

[Aurora Rossa]

I think that's what his statement implies, yes.

Ah, ok then.

As for gods or God, I like Neil Gaiman's observation: the universe rewards belief systems. Believe in omnipotent teddy bears, and you'll soon start finding evidence for omnipotent teddy bears.

So how does this relate to gods existing in Almea, or was this more of an aside not commenting on the world itself?

[dhok]

As for gods or God, I like Neil Gaiman's observation: the universe rewards belief systems. Believe in omnipotent teddy bears, and you'll soon start finding evidence for omnipotent teddy bears.

I take it the other way round. You can't believe in anything until you've seen some evidence for it, even if it's only hearsay evidence.

That's not true; think of Scientology.

[Aurora Rossa]

Incidentally, why would an Ilian religion necessarily prohibit space travel? Certainly religions have taken negative stances on technology before but I have never heard a Christian fundamentalist denounce NASA, for example. And surely the Iliî would take a rather moderate or liberal stance on any religion they have anyway. On the other hand I can't claim to know the intricacies of Ilian theology. Perhaps the no space travel thing is as central to it as the Resurrection of Jesus is to Christianity and cannot be interpreted away.

[zompist]

Think of it as a non-intervention policy. The iliu believe that an alien ecosystem just is not theirs to mess with. (They might feel differently if they were aware of peers or superiors in the stellar neighborhood.)

Though biology isn't destiny, it may help to remember that they're an aquatic, communal species. They couldn't colonize a planet unless it had a large ocean. And the communal part means that they would truly dislike years-long space journeys or living in tiny colonies.

[Aurora Rossa]

Think of it as a non-intervention policy. The iliu believe that an alien ecosystem just is not theirs to mess with. (They might feel differently if they were aware of peers or superiors in the stellar neighborhood.)

So it's not so much "if God had meant us to travel in space, He would have said so in the Holy Book" as a sort of prime directive or environmentalist ethos.

[zompist]

Think of it as a non-intervention policy. The iliu believe that an alien ecosystem just is not theirs to mess with. (They might feel differently if they were aware of peers or superiors in the stellar neighborhood.)

So it's not so much "if God had meant us to travel in space, He would have said so in the Holy Book" as a sort of prime directive or environmentalist ethos.

Hmm, it sounds like your idea of a religious rule is an arbitrary dictate from an old book. That's one form of rule, but many religious people would say it's the lowest form-- as Laozi says, "Ritual is the husk of true faith, the beginning of chaos."

A skeptical person could ask, why have rules at all? Why not derive everything rationally? In part, it's because you can't derive everything; you have to assume something to start the reasoning process.

And in part, as Marvin Minsky points out, morality saves time and effort. Take a basic value such as: a human being isn't just a bag of meat, even when dead; it's a person. If we believe this, we'd like other people to believe it too. There's three basic possibilities:

a) They just accept it.
b) It's subject to argumentation and dispute. Many, perhaps most, end up accepting it. But some people experiment with the "bag of meat" idea till it leads to problems (such as other people shooting them). Others use ingenious rationalizations to argue against it.
c) Others don't accept it, leading to mass brutality.

The more basic the moral rule, the more preferable the (a) option. (With more peripheral rules, we might decide that we can pay the price of other people doubting and experimenting.)

[Aurora Rossa]

Hmm, it sounds like your idea of a religious rule is an arbitrary dictate from an old book. That's one form of rule, but many religious people would say it's the lowest form-- as Laozi says, "Ritual is the husk of true faith, the beginning of chaos."

Possibly. I suppose I am thinking of the kinds of rules seen in Christianity as models of how religious rules work. An ecological rule not rooted in ancient tradition or holy texts can have a spiritual dimension, I'm sure, but it would tend to strike me as philosophical more so than religious. Though it would depend in part on where it derives from as well.

[sasasha]

As for gods or God, I like Neil Gaiman's observation: the universe rewards belief systems. Believe in omnipotent teddy bears, and you'll soon start finding evidence for omnipotent teddy bears.

Off topic. But I could be said to believe in omniscient and omnipresent teddy bears. Or at least, I have given so much personality to my teddy bear that I can't deny I 'believe' on some emotional level which transcends logical thought that he has a consciousness, knows what I'm doing and thinking at all times, talks to me, and lives in his own little world which I visit when I sleep, and to which I may eventually return when I die. That's what happens to you when you don't give up your soft toys at an appropriate age, folks, so just be warned.

Of course, he does have a consciousness in a sense - mine. I guess this is just as real as belief in a deity in some ways. I believe it because it is convenient for my emotional hardware to be programmed in that way.

Anyway. On topic. What do Ilii use as spacecraft? How, why and by whom are the craft engineered and built? And how is the scientific knowledge of the Ilii grown and passed on? Do they have universities? Physics labs? Presumably these things must be on land. Come to think of it, how does their society cope with having so many industries and technologies (those on land) based far from their main underwater settlements?

Quite a few questions; I don't trawl through the Almea forum very often so don't take the time to answer if you think I could easily find out from another topic. Maybe just point me in the right direction, as I'm fascinated by how a society of intelligent, agricultural, technological water-dwellers capable of space flight might differ from ours in almost every practical aspect.

[zompist]

Anyway. On topic. What do Ilii use as spacecraft? How, why and by whom are the craft engineered and built? And how is the scientific knowledge of the Ilii grown and passed on? Do they have universities? Physics labs? Presumably these things must be on land. Come to think of it, how does their society cope with having so many industries and technologies (those on land) based far from their main underwater settlements?

This reminds me of a Brazilian article I read, about a young Indian who's taken to see a city for the first time. He gazes around at the huge buildings, seemingly not very impressed, and finally asks "Where is the mandiocal?"-- the place where manioc is pounded?

Our species has (on a historical scale) only just discovered technology; we're fascinated by it and our efforts are crude and destructive. The ilii are 30,000 years beyond us. They long ago learned to have a small ecological footprint; and they're well past mere technophilia.

Another analogy: clocks in the medieval era were huge, and might dominate the town square. Asked to imagine the future, a medieval craftsman might picture cities filled with clockwork. It might surprise him to see a modern man with a little wristwatch, or even a PDA which offers the current time along with many other functions. Similarly, an iliu who looks like he's using no technology at all-- swimming in the ocean taking care of fish, for instance-- might be using some highly advanced but nearly invisible technology.

As for space travel, they are likely to just explore for curiosity's sake, not colonize, since they wouldn't consider a planet habitable unless it had a large water ocean.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

As for space travel, they are likely to just explore for curiosity's sake, not colonize, since they wouldn't consider a planet habitable unless it had a large water ocean.

Should we imply then that they do have spaceships, but something so advanced, that to us, it is like the watches for a medieval? That sounds like a wonder to see

[Salmoneus]

For what it's worth, I read an analysis once that suggested that ocean worlds might be the norm among habitable planets (and also that this might allow many more civilisation than Drake would admit, since aquatic civilisations might be less detectable and less prone to interstellar exploration).

[sasasha]

This reminds me of a Brazilian article I read, about a young Indian who's taken to see a city for the first time. He gazes around at the huge buildings, seemingly not very impressed, and finally asks "Where is the mandiocal?"-- the place where manioc is pounded?

Our species has (on a historical scale) only just discovered technology; we're fascinated by it and our efforts are crude and destructive. The ilii are 30,000 years beyond us. They long ago learned to have a small ecological footprint; and they're well past mere technophilia.

Fair enough. Though in asking if the ilii have physics labs, I don't mean to suggest that I can only imagine them to build concrete rooms with recognisable whiteboards, workstations, microscopes, particle accelerators... Of course their technology differs from ours, not least that the ilii are a different species to us with different minds and physical capabilities but also because of their history of technology use and development. I just wondered how they develop and manufacture their technologies. Or in other words, in what environment, social and physical, do their scientists and engineers conduct their science and engineering?

As you mention in the Descent of Lesüasi, ilii must forge metals on land. One presumes this takes them away from the main body of ilii population, much as scientists working in sparsely inhabited regions are isolated from the main body of ours. Do the manufacturers of ilii technologies that require the forging or moulding of metals, then, generally lead solitary working lives away from their communities, working hermetically, or do groups of ilii and their families (if they have families similar to ours) form small working communities on land?

My university question - I'm not expecting there to be an educational system made of stone buildings, outdoor Go boards, and cheap student union bars in iliu civilisations. Perhaps the structure of ilii society is so discorporate that inventing and building technology for space travel is a largely one-iliu affair. But presumably knowledge like this must be stored within their society otherwise the species would have had trouble attaining the productive, ecologically balanced plateau of tool use and resource management that you describe. So how is knowledge transferred from generation to generation? Is every iliu likely to know roughly how space travel is engineered because it was drummed into them in iliu primary school, or might it just be some who have worked with the people who made the last space craft, something like apprentices, while other ilii learn how to take care of fish or whatever?

I like Yiuel's observation; travelling in space for an iliu might seem as technologically subtle as wearing a wristwatch. It's just all very interesting...

[zompist]

Just as a general answer to some of these questions, the iliu maintain land enclaves for things that can only be done there. Thousands of years ago, these might be fairly extensive; but as humans and elcari develop technology, they can use many of their products rather than doing it themselves.

Their enclaves are all coastal, so they're not hard to integrate into mainstream iliu areas on the continental shelf.

Iliu lifetimes are long, on the order of a milennium, so they have plenty of time for education.

[sasasha]

Wow, cool. I didn't realise when you said long you meant that long.

Forgive my inconsistent usage of 'ilii' vs. 'iliu'. I should brush up on Verdurian nouns.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

Is every iliu likely to know roughly how space travel is engineered because it was drummed into them in iliu primary school, or might it just be some who have worked with the people who made the last space craft, something like apprentices, while other ilii learn how to take care of fish or whatever?

Unless our amphibian friends have genetic memory, I highly doubt that they would be drummed that in primary high school. Sure, Iliu had approx. 30 000 years to somewhat evolve beyond us, and it seems they did, as they, for one, can litterally share visions. But, on an evolutionary scale, this is certainly not that very long, so I wouldn't imply genetic memory. After, we didn't get any genetic memory of how to build a fire. After all those years, we still have to learn how to make it or else we're screwed.

Now, why wouldn't they be drummed that in primary school? Again, zomp does not give us much info, but here is my guess : The same reason why we aren't drummed the equivalent in our primary schools. Taking zomp's analogy, do we all learn how to make those small watches? At best, we learn how to use them in a useful way, but the use of those tools are made simple enough. But we certainly don't learn how to make them. This is reserved for those who will specialize in that field. Complex organization seems to imply some specialization. Look at our own body : not all cells will do everything that the body needs. Some cells don't even have all the information to do so (like red cells).

Sure, we will all, somehow, learn all the basic tools to live within society, but, as far as I know, designing a watch is not part of the basics of our own society. And I am fairly confident that the same idea could be applied to the iliu. Look at our own educational system. We are taught tons, but we don't remember everything. I certainly don't remember all the details of trigonometry or the name of all the chemicals in my body that I have learned about. Why would it be different with iliu. Granted, their society seems more advance, and what they may need might substancially different from our own, but even if they were scrammed in some things like space-ship building, if it's not a fundamental part of their lifestyle (and zomp claims it isn't), they would even remember it.

I would suppose, instead, full specialization, pretty much the same way our and uesti societies do.

[Glenn]

I realize that this thread fell by the wayside a long time ago, but I wanted to add a comment or two (and a question).

I assume they've been in space and explored Almea's system a bit, but not gone into interstellar space.

What made them stop, just out of interest (also, what about the implications like bunkers and stuff still lying around Almea)?

Religious convictions, at least in part. They believe that their place is Almea and they shouldn't get too far from it, nor intrude on other people's planets.

When I read Mark’s first comment, my initial assumption was that the iliu had the capacity for interplanetary, but not interstellar space travel; the implication that they can travel between stars (or at least could at one time), but prefer not to, drastically changes that picture!

The prospect of iliu in space raises another question: how long can the iliu safely remain out of water, and would they need to take a watery (or partly watery) environment into space with them? The iliu seem capable of traveling for long distances out of water, more so than the kutvoki – as implied by the ilian settlement and shrine in Lake Berunor, hundreds of kilometers inland, even if there are rivers running most of the way. (I note that this also implies that the iliu are at home in both freshwater and saltwater environments.)

I’ve read a few science fiction treatments of space-going aquatic species that reflected on the issues of launching a water-filled spacecraft into orbit (i.e., a heavy payload) versus the prospect of mining ice for water from icy moons and/or comets; I wonder what approach the iliu would take? (In practice, I expect that a variety of strategies would be used over time, with all water supplies brought along at first, supplemented by ice mining as the latter eventually became feasible.)

p@ (a deep bow with a flourish),
Glenn

[Atom]

Something occurred to me: Why did the ilii help the Cuzeians and Ervea? It seems hypocritical of them to declare that (according to the summary given by from In The Land of the Babblers and A diary of the Prose Wars) Humans need to learn to solve their own problems. Unless apparently, they live in Eretald. The Qaurus were also favored by the iliu, why didn't they get help fighting Dheknam.

I have only one theory that makes them non-hypocrites: It says in the Historical Atlas that the Iliu who helped the Cuzei had steel and black powder weapons, yet we know they're likely to be far more advanced then humans. Therefore I suggest they were historical reenactors of the ilii-Ktuvoki wars who got a bit ahead of themselves.

[con quesa]

Something occurred to me: Why did the ilii help the Cuzeians and Ervea? It seems hypocritical of them to declare that (according to the summary given by from In The Land of the Babblers and A diary of the Prose Wars) Humans need to learn to solve their own problems. Unless apparently, they live in Eretald. The Qaurus were also favored by the iliu, why didn't they get help fighting Dheknam.

I have only one theory that makes them non-hypocrites: It says in the Historical Atlas that the Iliu who helped the Cuzei had steel and black powder weapons, yet we know they're likely to be far more advanced then humans. Therefore I suggest they were historical reenactors of the ilii-Ktuvoki wars who got a bit ahead of themselves.

Alternatively, it could be that the particular Ilii described in the summery of Babblers and the particular Illii who helped otu Ervea and the Cuezians were different groups of Iliu, who had different views about to what extent it was permissible to assist humans. It's been established that different Iliu have different moralities, and that they respect other Iliu's different moralities.

I guess that also brings up the issue of exactly how communal iliu society is. Do all the Iliu on Almea consider themselves to be part of the same community? Maybe the divisons are into the several different continental shelf areas - abyssal sea plains make some sense as a natural division, but I don't know of any feature that would make it make sense to divide up a continental shelf into smaller areas. And of course the Ilii probably have different ideas about the importance of belonging to one community over another than we do - I would imagine nationalism is not an Ilii value.

And going back to space travel, is it possible that there were Ilii who felt it important to travel into and colonize space, and that they have simply just already done that thousands of years ago and are therefore no longer on Almea?

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

I realize that this thread fell by the wayside a long time ago, but I wanted to add a comment or two (and a question).

I assume they've been in space and explored Almea's system a bit, but not gone into interstellar space.

What made them stop, just out of interest (also, what about the implications like bunkers and stuff still lying around Almea)?

Religious convictions, at least in part. They believe that their place is Almea and they shouldn't get too far from it, nor intrude on other people's planets.

When I read Mark’s first comment, my initial assumption was that the iliu had the capacity for interplanetary, but not interstellar space travel; the implication that they can travel between stars (or at least could at one time), but prefer not to, drastically changes that picture!

However, neither answer implies any side. Interstellar travel is a lot longer than interplanetary travel. (Furthest planet from Earth, 5 light-hours. Closest star : 4 light-years. Over 7000 times. And we are playing with extremes here.) However, if they do have interstellar travel, it would be fun indeed.

I’ve read a few science fiction treatments of space-going aquatic species that reflected on the issues of launching a water-filled spacecraft into orbit (i.e., a heavy payload) versus the prospect of mining ice for water from icy moons and/or comets; I wonder what approach the iliu would take? (In practice, I expect that a variety of strategies would be used over time, with all water supplies brought along at first, supplemented by ice mining as the latter eventually became feasible.)

Is travelling in a water-spacesuit another option? It seems no one thinks about this one.

[zompist]

Something occurred to me: Why did the ilii help the Cuzeians and Ervea? It seems hypocritical of them to declare that (according to the summary given by from In The Land of the Babblers and A diary of the Prose Wars) Humans need to learn to solve their own problems. Unless apparently, they live in Eretald. The Qaurus were also favored by the iliu, why didn't they get help fighting Dheknam.

The Cuzeians in the 400s were facing an existential threat; the Qaraus never did.

The ktuvok crisis in the 1600s affected the whole continent and apparently was considered serious enough that intervention was warranted. (It's very possible that this was a minority opinion, since the scale of the intervention was small.)