Proto-Eastern and Axinashin

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Glenn
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Proto-Eastern and Axinashin

Post by Glenn »

Dear Z (aka Mark),

Something that has bothered me for some time...

In your article on Proto-Eastern philology, the following passage appears (my apologies--the formatting got lost):

"The first step, looking for sound correspondances, can be illustrated by listing the following words in several Eastern languages:

Cu?zi Cadhinor Axunashin Obenzayet Lufasha
ba:xe faukhes h?ghiz fa
be:rede veredes sheirvi h?raziz fei
fer?de vehend shejiz ha??d fe
fua:liu fuelis weli halil fua

From these words-- and many others; it must be emphasized that the method relies on the painstaking comparison of literally hundreds of words, not just a few-- there seems to be some kind of correspondance going on:

Cu?zi Cadhinor Axunashin Obenzayet Lufasha "
b/f f/v f h f

However, none of the Axunashin examples above contain an "f."
All of them are indeed derived from Proto-Eastern words that contained one, but none of them do "now." How then can a correspondence on the basis of "f" be drawn? Or am I missing something? :?

p@,
Glenn

Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

P.S. ...On the other hand, nearly all of the PE words in the lexicon beginning with "f" begin with "sh" in Axunashin, in accordance with the regular sound change. Perhaps this is the real correspondence?
(And how would someone reconstructing PE know which of the modern sounds (here, f as opposed to b, b/v, sh, or h) is/was the "original" one? Probably simply through exhaustive comparison...am I right?)

p@,
Glenn

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Post by zompist »

Glenn Kempf wrote:P.S. ...On the other hand, nearly all of the PE words in the lexicon beginning with "f" begin with "sh" in Axunashin, in accordance with the regular sound change. Perhaps this is the real correspondence?
Yes indeed; the f for Axunashin is just wrong. (Or perhaps just outdated. I wrote that part very early, and the data may have changed later.) I'll correct that section.
Glenn Kempf wrote:(And how would someone reconstructing PE know which of the modern sounds (here, f as opposed to b, b/v, sh, or h) is/was the "original" one? Probably simply through exhaustive comparison...am I right?)
We can't know for certain; we're really just making our best guess. Some historical linguists consider proto-phonemes to be just a shorthand for the correspondences-- e.g. if we reconstruct *f here, the important claim is that there's one phoneme here, not that we know for sure that it's a bilabial (or labiodental...?) fricative.

Of course, we also try for the most phonetically plausible reconstruction that's compatible with the evidence. Some changes are a lot more likely than others; other changes, though equally possible, don't accord with the facts as well.

In this case, *f is probably the best choice, though not necessily the only one you could defend. *h is very unlikely: f :> h is a well-attested lenition, while h :> f is not; also *h doesn't relate to the labials in the other languages. The latter point also rules out *sh; f :> sh and sh :> f would seem to be equally likely, but *sh couldn't easily explain the labials in Cu?zi and Cadhinor.

*v is not very likely-- f :> v is a common lenition, and we'd have to have some extra evidence to posit a v :> f fortition instead.

That brings us to *b. The posited f :> b is a fortition. It's not that uncommon to have fortitions in initial position, and positing it makes for a lot fewer assumptions in general (none of the other languages have a b, and even Cu?zi doesn't have it in all environments.)

So, that leaves us with *f. Of course, one could also argue for another sound entirely that led to all these correspondences... perhaps *p. In this case I don't think *p offers any explanatory advantages over *f, and since it's not itself attested, I'd rather go with *f, which is the most widely attested reflex anyway.

Historical linguists argue long and hard over the precise details of proto-languages. There's about four competing reconstructions of Old Chinese, and even in Indo-European, there are deep disagreements over the stops and the laryngeals.

Another level of disagreement comes in when people attempt to compare protolanguages. E.g., people reconstruct Old Chinese rather differently if they base it only on the Sinitic dialects (e.g. "Old Chinese" on my numbers page), or on information from proto-Tibetan as well (e.g. "proto-Chinese").

Glenn
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Post by Glenn »

Thanks for the explanation; it helps clear up how the reconstruction process works. This may come in handy if I start proto-conlanging--of course, in that case, I'll know what the original was... :wink:

p@,
Glenn

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