Sarroc and Demoshi

[Dewrad]

Reading through the historical atlas, I noticed something interesting. In the modern day scripts and cities map, Sarn?e is shown as using the Demoshi alphabet, while on the language map, it's shown as speaking Sarroc. Does that mean that Sarroc is written with the Demoshi alphabet?

Also, what are Demoshi and Sarroc like? Will their grammars ever be committed to HTML?

[zompist]

Reading through the historical atlas, I noticed something interesting. In the modern day scripts and cities map, Sarn?e is shown as using the Demoshi alphabet, while on the language map, it's shown as speaking Sarroc. Does that mean that Sarroc is written with the Demoshi alphabet?

Kind of. When the Sarn?en countries were independent, they used the Cadhinorian alphabet. When Dhekhnam took over, it imposed its own writing system for Sarroc. But they don't really approve of the Sarroc writing in their own language at all-- they're supposed to write in Demoshi.

Also, what are Demoshi and Sarroc like? Will their grammars ever be committed to HTML?

Sarroc is probably not very exciting, since it's just another Cadhinor-descendent, not even as abberant as Romanian is within Romance... someday I'll probably work out sound changes for it, though.

Demoshi should be more interesting and I do intend to get to it. All I can say for now is that I'm going to get away from the "nasty sounds for nasty people" meme. If anything I'd like it to sound nice. This may well mean that some established words change or get a new history, though! (E.g. it may turn out that "Munkhash" is a Monkhayic word.)

[Dewrad]

Kind of. When the Sarn?en countries were independent, they used the Cadhinorian alphabet. When Dhekhnam took over, it imposed its own writing system for Sarroc. But they don't really approve of the Sarroc writing in their own language at all-- they're supposed to write in Demoshi.

Like the USSR imposing Cyrillic on languages which had a historically different orthography? Nice. Do you have anything worked out for the Demoshi script yet? Even in general terms- is it an alphabet, a syllabary or quite what? One thing I'd like to see is an Arabic/Syriac style script in Almea- pace handwritten Verdurian.

Also, what are Demoshi and Sarroc like? Will their grammars ever be committed to HTML?

Sarroc is probably not very exciting, since it's just another Cadhinor-descendent, not even as abberant as Romanian is within Romance... someday I'll probably work out sound changes for it, though.

I for one would still be interested in seeing it- I have a soft spot for the Cadhinor-derived languages

Demoshi should be more interesting and I do intend to get to it. All I can say for now is that I'm going to get away from the "nasty sounds for nasty people" meme. If anything I'd like it to sound nice. This may well mean that some established words change or get a new history, though! (E.g. it may turn out that "Munkhash" is a Monkhayic word.)

Hurrah! I think a mellifluous-sounding language would be cool.

[Neek]

I think I've seen one example of Sarroc as < dhaol >, which seems to be a cognate to Verdurian < dalu >. Just because it's another Cadhinorian descendant doesn't make it any less cool. Sometimes these languages which seem not that distinct are the coolest.

[dunomapuka]

Demoshi should be more interesting and I do intend to get to it. All I can say for now is that I'm going to get away from the "nasty sounds for nasty people" meme. If anything I'd like it to sound nice. This may well mean that some established words change or get a new history, though! (E.g. it may turn out that "Munkhash" is a Monkhayic word.)

I approve--I suppose if you tried to make it nasty-sounding it would sound too much like Elkaril/Barakhinei (which I note have some phonological features in common--is that due to areal influence?).

A nice-sounding language could be marvellously insidious. You could start on the basis of the word "Demoshi" itself, which strikes me as an inexplicably cool word.

[Mornche Geddick]

I hope Mark does write a Sarroc grammar because it would be a real challenge to make it a novel variation. Being further from the centre of the Empire, it has probably diverged more than Barakhinei or Ismain. Shwm Revouse says the words have been "worn down" i.e. shortened. I also remember Mark saying Sarroc had lost the genitive but used the dative and ablative instead. I'd be prepared to bet on a lot of Monkhayic influence as well.

Meanwhile I don't suppose the Demoshi alphabet is the only one used in the region. It's probably an act of patriotic resistance to learn Cadhinor - the tongue of Enaron, not the babble of Gelalh.

[hwhatting]

In the Verdurian Drilldown
(http://www.zompist.com/kingdom.htm#Patriarchates), the following is said about religious organisation in Sarn?e:

The Dhekhnami have closed down the cletan? in their territory, and chased the perarh out of Ilzanea; they still suffer those in Eteban and Visecra to remain, these having made Soviet-style professions of fealty to their overlords.

Based on this, I'd assume that Cadhinorian may be still in usage for religious and temple-administrative purposes. Also, in a society on the developmental state of the 17th-18th century, you'd probably not expect a total control of all aspects of life as in a modern totalitarian system - I would think that the government of Dekhnam would be able to control which kind of religious services people attend, or which books are published, but maybe not to any big degree private communications or what people are doing inside their houses. So I assume that Sarroc and / or Cadhinor are being used in private letters or in business correspondence between Sarroc speakers.
But maybe I'm wrong...
Hans-Werner

[Mornche Geddick]

In the Verdurian Drilldown
(http://www.zompist.com/kingdom.htm#Patriarchates), the following is said about religious organisation in Sarn?e:

The Dhekhnami have closed down the cletan? in their territory, and chased the perarh out of Ilzanea; they still suffer those in Eteban and Visecra to remain, these having made Soviet-style professions of fealty to their overlords.

Based on this, I'd assume that Cadhinorian may be still in usage for religious and temple-administrative purposes. Also, in a society on the developmental state of the 17th-18th century, you'd probably not expect a total control of all aspects of life as in a modern totalitarian system - I would think that the government of Dekhnam would be able to control which kind of religious services people attend, or which books are published, but maybe not to any big degree private communications or what people are doing inside their houses. So I assume that Sarroc and / or Cadhinor are being used in private letters or in business correspondence between Sarroc speakers.
But maybe I'm wrong...
Hans-Werner

That's what I was thinking. Probably banned books are in circulation too. In 16C England, when Catholicism was persecuted under Elizabeth I, Fr Robert Parsons actually managed to set up a secret printing press. It was small enough to be hidden in a haycart if memory serves...

[So Haleza Grise]

Being further from the centre of the Empire, it has probably diverged more than Barakhinei or Ismain.

Tolkien popularised this idea that the capital holds the most conservative, most classical version of a language, but it's very rarely true. I think of London English - it's undergone a lost more phonological development than that spoken in rural northern and western England.

[Velomil]

Being further from the centre of the Empire, it has probably diverged more than Barakhinei or Ismain.

Tolkien popularised this idea that the capital holds the most conservative, most classical version of a language, but it's very rarely true. I think of London English - it's undergone a lost more phonological development than that spoken in rural northern and western England.

Indeed, looking at Indo-European, peripheral ancient languages are generally more archaic than those in the centre of gravity.

[Piero]

People often suppose that the dialect of the capital city (or whatever other place has supplied the standard language) is more 'pure' or more conservative than provincial speech. In fact the opposite is likely to be true: the active center of a culture will see its speech change fastest; rural or isolated areas are more likely to preserve older forms.

[chris-gr]

People often suppose that the dialect of the capital city (or whatever other place has supplied the standard language) is more 'pure' or more conservative than provincial speech. In fact the opposite is likely to be true: the active center of a culture will see its speech change fastest; rural or isolated areas are more likely to preserve older forms.

Ten points for Piero. Dix pints pour Piero.


EDIT: pints, mean points . That's what you get when you type under the influence of 5 beers.

[Piero]

People often suppose that the dialect of the capital city (or whatever other place has supplied the standard language) is more 'pure' or more conservative than provincial speech. In fact the opposite is likely to be true: the active center of a culture will see its speech change fastest; rural or isolated areas are more likely to preserve older forms.

Ten points for Piero. Dix pints pour Piero.


EDIT: pints, mean points . That's what you get when you type under the influence of 5 beers.

Right. Who will have the nerve to contradict the Bible?

[chris-gr]

Right. Who will have the nerve to contradict the Bible?

HEY! The Lord Himself blessed Beer. It was an ancient Basque drink afterall!

PS. I will come over Il CORSO D'ITALIANO e' molto interessante

[Piero]

PS. I will come over Il CORSO D'ITALIANO e' molto interessante

ok ci conto