Eledhat

[Jaaaaaa]

What exactly is Eledhat? I heard soemone say it has something to tdo with Christianity or soemthing, but what exactly is it, except that it's a religion? I looked aorund the site and if it's there I must of missed it.

[zompist]

Start with the Historical Atlas, map 2870. The Elenicoi mentioned there pushed an early form of Catholicism; their followers then merged with the Arashei, the people who still followed Cuzeian religion. Their scriptures are the Cuzeian Book of Eledh, the Book of Iesu (our New Testament), and the Book of Mihel (an account of the Elenicoi).

[Jaaaaaa]

ah, cool!

[Iscun]

How's the Count of Years coming along, Z?

[eodrakken]

Reminds me, I've been wondering about Eledhat. It always seemed to me like an unusual choice, to have Earth people transported in by magical means, and severely alter the course of Verdurian civilization. I'm not sure why it seems so odd to me -- certainly, I've invented worlds that had alien (to them) contact, not exclusively in "modern" times. I guess it's the fact that a large-scale religious conversion took place. Judging from the Atlas, the people of Erenat were due for a new creed, but why make it literally Catholicism? You could have had a ship from another Almean continent come along with their Christian-like monotheistic religion, which seems more typical of your world-building style. Did you want to avoid having the monotheists so close by, so you could limit yourself to one small group of "missionaries", with no possibility of more on the way?

I hope this doesn't sound like criticism -- the bottom line is that you did it because you wanted to, of course. It's your world. I'm just curious how you came to the decision, and if you've ever regretted it.

[zompist]

How's the Count of Years coming along, Z?

Good... I'm hoping to have the first installment up with the other new-month features.

I think I'm done with the story itself; mostly I'm writing commentary, revising wording, adding some verse, and worrying about what else the ancient Cuzeians would want to talk about.

[zompist]

Reminds me, I've been wondering about Eledhat. It always seemed to me like an unusual choice, to have Earth people transported in by magical means, and severely alter the course of Verdurian civilization. I'm not sure why it seems so odd to me -- certainly, I've invented worlds that had alien (to them) contact, not exclusively in "modern" times. I guess it's the fact that a large-scale religious conversion took place. Judging from the Atlas, the people of Erenat were due for a new creed, but why make it literally Catholicism? You could have had a ship from another Almean continent come along with their Christian-like monotheistic religion, which seems more typical of your world-building style. Did you want to avoid having the monotheists so close by, so you could limit yourself to one small group of "missionaries", with no possibility of more on the way?

I hope this doesn't sound like criticism -- the bottom line is that you did it because you wanted to, of course. It's your world. I'm just curious how you came to the decision, and if you've ever regretted it.

Nah... if I regret anything, it's Verdurian verbal inflections, and maybe the shape of Erelae, both of which are too hard to change now. (After reading Jared Diamond, I wish I'd put a civilization west of Eretald. And the inflections made it almost impossible to reconstruct proto-Eastern.)

Probably the idea was sparked by C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, which I've always loved. I liked his idea that different worlds could have a few hidden gateways between them.

I probably wouldn't come up with it today, but I don't feel any great need to remove it, either; it's more interesting to think about how exactly both sides would have reacted to each other, and how Greek Catholicism of AD 325 would develop if transported into a different world.

And true, I could have invented a monotheism of my own... but, well, I've done that elsewhere. I tend to think that fantasy worlds need some links to our own-- that no one can really read books that start, "Quargg&lp moved his sixth vrimp over the splorchled surface of his xruphid's left bramq." It's absurd on some level to have humans, horses, and wheat on an alien planet... even more so, really, if we lightly disguise them with prosthetic foreheads and funny ears. Well, if we can't get away from all that, I'd rather embrace it and use it, rather than pretend it's not there. So there are very human-like creatures on Almea, and a rather European-like country there, and away from them there's room for weird things as well.

[Glenn]

[Warning: this one is LONG! ]

Nah... if I regret anything, it's Verdurian verbal inflections, and maybe the shape of Erelae, both of which are too hard to change now. (After reading Jared Diamond, I wish I'd put a civilization west of Eretald. And the inflections made it almost impossible to reconstruct proto-Eastern.)

Interesting--what would you have changed about the shape of Erelae, and why would you have put a civilization west of Eretald in particular? Is it related to the geography of the continent as it now stands?

I have to admit that reading Diamond changed my views regarding my own main conworld setting as well--forcing me to think, to some extent, in terms of more civilizations, longer-range contacts and trade, and a more complex language situation (or explanations for a more simplified one), not to mention a deeper time frame for the roots of civilization. It didn't change the basic setup, but it did modify it.

On a self-serving side note (sorry!): Thinking this way did spruce up some parts of my consetting and make it more interesting. The most dramatic example involved the relationship between the Empire of Kiarlon and the city-state of Pirkinesi, two of the main political entities in my world. I knew that I wanted Kiarlon to absorb Pirkinesi and the surrounding coastal lands, but for the Pirkinesians to retain their own language and culture and play an important role in the later empire. However, the geographical setup placed Pirkinesi so close to Kiarlon that it would be absorbed entirely too quickly, and it was hard to see the Pirkinesians giving up so easily.

From that skeletal plot, a thought-experiment emerged involving Pirkinesi as a powerful city-fortress (inspired by Constantinople); multiple attempts at conquest by Kiarlon, eventually ending in success; the assimilation of some Pirkinesians into the Kiarloni system and their future influence (once the memories of conquest had faded); the resistance of the more remote coastal fringe states, who retained their own culture; the use of the old Pirkinesi language and alphabet as a symbol of nationalism; and a population of Pirkinesian rebels exiled to the far corner of the empire, who eventually evolved their own culture, dialect, and religion.
I only hope that I can do justice to it all on paper some day...

Probably the idea was sparked by C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, which I've always loved. I liked his idea that different worlds could have a few hidden gateways between them.

I think that a connection with "our" world can add a feeling of connection to a fantasy setting--but if it's there, it needs to be well integrated into the world in question, if not the central element (as it is in Narnia).

Incidentally, in re-reading the history of Eledhat in the Historical Atlas, I was struck by just how dramatic the story of the first Elenicoi is: the Miracle of the Translation, the Elenecoi falling into a new world and their reception at Avela, the spreading of the faith, and Mihel and his followers' involvement in Avela's uprising against Kebri. I'm sure that there's a fascinating story in there, as well as a best-selling novel--it really strikes me as a stirring tale. (Take that, Harry Turtledove! )

[In addition to Avela and Kebri, the Arashei/Eledhe frontier kingdoms of the Eardur, especially Benecia, are also interesting; they may be the closest thing to "medieval" Christianity in present-day Erelae, with literacy mainly restricted to the clergy and upper classes.]

Some further notes and questions:

- Apropos my previous question regarding technology, how big was the technological (as opposed to political, cultural, linguistic, and religious) clash between the Elenecoi and the people of Avela? It would seem to me that 29th-century Eretald would be more advanced technologically than 4th-century Egypt, but maybe not; the Roman Empire was fairly advanced itself, and Eretald was just emerging from its Dark Ages.

- Are the Obenzayet descended from a side branch of the Makshi who invaded Eretald in the 29th century, a northern branch of the Kuret peoples further south (who perhaps took advantage of the Makshi invasion to move north), or neither? I've been looking at the movements of the nomads in the Historical Atlas, but it's hard to tell...

- In talking about nomad/settled interactions, another interesting case is the Curiyans and their ilk, who conquered their own kingdom on the Plain and eventually settled down themselves--not to mention the Cadhinorian peoples who revolted against them. I'm sure their tale is an interesting one as well.

- In re-reading the story of Bezuxao in Cheiy and the Master of Shushumbor, I was struck for the first time by the resemblance to the Order of Assassins in 11th-century Persia, with their mountain fortress of Alamout and their leader, the Shaykh al-Jabal or "Old Man of the Mountains" (Hassan-i-Sabba and his successors). Coincidence?

p@,
Glenn

[zompist]

Nah... if I regret anything, it's Verdurian verbal inflections, and maybe the shape of Erelae, both of which are too hard to change now. (After reading Jared Diamond, I wish I'd put a civilization west of Eretald. And the inflections made it almost impossible to reconstruct proto-Eastern.)

Interesting--what would you have changed about the shape of Erelae, and why would you have put a civilization west of Eretald in particular? Is it related to the geography of the continent as it now stands?

It's related to Diamond's contention that Earth's most advanced cultures are on Eurasia because it's the planet's largest swath of east-west-oriented real estate. This should really be true of Erel?e too; but the east and west sides are only tenuously connected. Well, perhaps it'll all make more sense once we know more about T?llinor and Vipodokh.

Incidentally, in re-reading the history of Eledhat in the Historical Atlas, I was struck by just how dramatic the story of the first Elenicoi is: the Miracle of the Translation, the Elenecoi falling into a new world and their reception at Avela, the spreading of the faith, and Mihel and his followers' involvement in Avela's uprising against Kebri. I'm sure that there's a fascinating story in there, as well as a best-selling novel--it really strikes me as a stirring tale. (Take that, Harry Turtledove! )

Well, thanks... as I've said, I'm not good at plots, and I've never figured out how exactly Mihel solved his problems! Well, someday I hope I will...

Apropos my previous question regarding technology, how big was the technological (as opposed to political, cultural, linguistic, and religious) clash between the Elenecoi and the people of Avela? It would seem to me that 29th-century Eretald would be more advanced technologically than 4th-century Egypt, but maybe not; the Roman Empire was fairly advanced itself, and Eretald was just emerging from its Dark Ages.

The Av?lans were more advanced technologically (e.g. they had better plows, better yokes, better windmills, better weapons, more advanced chemistry and metallurgy). On the other hand, the Greeks were arguably more advanced politically; the Av?lans were barely aware of small-state aristocratic government, while the Greeks were familiar with a continent-spanning empire.

Are the Obenzayet descended from a side branch of the Makshi who invaded Eretald in the 29th century, a northern branch of the Kuret peoples further south (who perhaps took advantage of the Makshi invasion to move north), or neither? I've been looking at the movements of the nomads in the Historical Atlas, but it's hard to tell...

Hmm, I thought the colors survived the transition to GIF format better. The Obenzayet are a branch of the Naviu (coequal with the Makshi). Note that Obenzayet is one of the languages used to reconstruct proto-Eastern.

In re-reading the story of Bezuxao in Cheiy and the Master of Shushumbor, I was struck for the first time by the resemblance to the Order of Assassins in 11th-century Persia, with their mountain fortress of Alamout and their leader, the Shaykh al-Jabal or "Old Man of the Mountains" (Hassan-i-Sabba and his successors). Coincidence?

Yep, that's the model. (Though Bezuxao isn't directly modelled on anything Near Eastern.)

(Hope that wasn't too brief an answer... it's late...)

[Glenn]

Thanks for answering all my questions--and at such an ungodly hour, too!

Are the Obenzayet descended from a side branch of the Makshi who invaded Eretald in the 29th century, a northern branch of the Kuret peoples further south (who perhaps took advantage of the Makshi invasion to move north), or neither? I've been looking at the movements of the nomads in the Historical Atlas, but it's hard to tell...

Hmm, I thought the colors survived the transition to GIF format better. The Obenzayet are a branch of the Naviu (coequal with the Makshi). Note that Obenzayet is one of the languages used to reconstruct proto-Eastern.

The colors are fine; it's just that the Naviu are all one color, and I was trying to guess the sub-movements within them (and make up my own story to match ).

(Hope that wasn't too brief an answer... it's late...)

Not at all; you answered everything (and it was a long set of questions...

p@,
Glenn

[Raphael]

Incidentally, in re-reading the history of Eledhat in the Historical Atlas, I was struck by just how dramatic the story of the first Elenicoi is: the Miracle of the Translation, the Elenecoi falling into a new world and their reception at Avela, the spreading of the faith, and Mihel and his followers' involvement in Avela's uprising against Kebri. I'm sure that there's a fascinating story in there, as well as a best-selling novel--it really strikes me as a stirring tale. (Take that, Harry Turtledove! )

Well, thanks... as I've said, I'm not good at plots, and I've never figured out how exactly Mihel solved his problems! Well, someday I hope I will...

Apparently the story of the Elenicoi is to a good deal inspired by the history of the Dutch struggle for independence. That's fine by me; it's quiet good irony to make a country the Almean equivalent of Holland and then cram it full with mountains.

[So Haleza Grise]

Probably the idea was sparked by C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, which I've always loved. I liked his idea that different worlds could have a few hidden gateways between them.

I think that a connection with "our" world can add a feeling of connection to a fantasy setting--but if it's there, it needs to be well integrated into the world in question, if not the central element (as it is in Narnia).

This is a very wise point to consider. Of course, this holds true for Middle-Earth as well - some wonder how Tolkien could create a world in which God was not worshipped, but (a) he is; and (b) it's quite obviously our own! One thing i especially liked about the films is the dotting of the sets with Numenorean ruins; this makes the whole place feel a bit more like England, with its legacy from pre-Celts, Celts, Romans, etc. being an obvious part of the landscape. Pity they couldn't include the Barrow-Downs . . .

Bringing it back to Almea, the history which resembles many aspects of terrestrial history helps to give a great degree of cohesion (and yes, the Plain too, is dotted with Cadhinorian ruins). One thing I think merits Almea for special distinction is that the world's more peripheral and far-flung areas are noted and described (sure, not in great detail yet, but they *will* be!) Just because a conworld place doesn't have major events or characters in it doesn't mean it's not interesting.

Of course, Rhun and Harad are deliberately very vague and unknown - Tolkien is reflecting again a medieval attitude of suspicion and lack of knowledge of anything outside the sphere of Christendom. For a nation such as Verduria embarked upon its age of discovery, this would be less appropriate.

[zompist]

Apparently the story of the Elenicoi is to a good deal inspired by the history of the Dutch struggle for independence. That's fine by me; it's quiet good irony to make a country the Almean equivalent of Holland and then cram it full with mountains.

Heh, not that I'm aware. The Kebreni occupation of ?renat simply flowed from the internal logic of their history: Kebri was more powerful than its neighbors and started seeing what it could get away with.

[So Haleza Grise]

Heh, not that I'm aware. The Kebreni occupation of ?renat simply flowed from the internal logic of their history: Kebri was more powerful than its neighbors and started seeing what it could get away with.

Rather in interesting contrast to that terrestrial island powerhouse, Great Britain, which, aside from the Napoleonic Wars, was quite content to leave the continent to its own devices while it went on industrialising and colonising in "splendid isolation"

But then of course, there is of course Japan, sometimes described as the "Britain of Asia", which did a complete policy reverse after the Meiji Restoration and meddled and expanded out the wazoo.

Is Kebri really expansionist, though? Judging from its current stand-offishness from both Verduria and Dhekhnam, it seems to want to maintain a continental balance of power. Unlike Great Britain though, it has sought allies on the mainland (Ismahi, and formerly Denisovich, yes?) which means it can't be entirely sure of its own position . . .

[zompist]

Is Kebri really expansionist, though? Judging from its current stand-offishness from both Verduria and Dhekhnam, it seems to want to maintain a continental balance of power. Unlike Great Britain though, it has sought allies on the mainland (Ismahi, and formerly Denisovich, yes?) which means it can't be entirely sure of its own position . . .

Well, it's not very big. It's about the size of the Netherlands. That's big enough to start a colonial empire with, but small enough that it tends to want allies.

[Neek]

Okay, excuse my ignorance on this, but the coming of the Elenicoi, other than religious, how else did it affect the world? I would think that even with one stranded ship, during the time, the idea of strangers from afar would begin to amass an invasion. Distrust and curiosityto the newcomers would be plausible. Would there, by chance, be a record of a person comparing the Roman empire to the Cadhinor? Or men modeling after tales of Alexander the Great and such classical Greek figures. Would works of Socrates affected the lives of the Cadhina? Or would a young man from the Western Empire have found his way on this ship, and attempted to have shaped the world into his own Roman empire? Worse yet--would the spunky heroine, Lhibeli, in her own written diary have branded herself as an Amazon?

[zompist]

Okay, excuse my ignorance on this, but the coming of the Elenicoi, other than religious, how else did it affect the world? I would think that even with one stranded ship, during the time, the idea of strangers from afar would begin to amass an invasion. Distrust and curiosityto the newcomers would be plausible. Would there, by chance, be a record of a person comparing the Roman empire to the Cadhinor? Or men modeling after tales of Alexander the Great and such classical Greek figures. Would works of Socrates affected the lives of the Cadhina? Or would a young man from the Western Empire have found his way on this ship, and attempted to have shaped the world into his own Roman empire? Worse yet--would the spunky heroine, Lhibeli, in her own written diary have branded herself as an Amazon?

All excellent questions, though my answer will probably be disappointing.

At first, of course, both sides thought that they were dealing with people from the same planet. It took some time to figure out that Almea wasn't the same as Oikumene. (The biggest clue was the different length of the year!)

I think premodern peoples aren't that thrown by the idea of other worlds. It's a big deal to us because we think of ourselves as living on a single planet very far from any others. But pre-industrial peoples generally have cosmologies that feature other realms of being, other beings (whether simply other species, or gods, or devils), other creations. And the Almeans, of course, really do have other intelligent species around. So the major impact on them would be to confirm the existing idea that other worlds exist.

As for the cultural details... I'm afraid I think they wouldn't have made much of an impact, except perhaps as folk tales. Although the Elenicoi became quite prestigious, their stories of Earth were rather confusing to people who had no idea at all of the peoples and histories involved. Who could keep track of all these strange names? Even the Old Testament isn't much read; it's simply too alien for the Almeans.

I like the idea of people fearing an invasion. However, once it was decided that the Elenicoi had arrived by miracle, I think fears would be dissipated, all the more so since there's been no repeat of it.

Still, I've concentrated on Verduria much more than ?renat, where Elenico influence was concentrated. There might be more Hellenistic influence there than I've found elsewhere.

[Glenn]

At first, of course, both sides thought that they were dealing with people from the same planet. It took some time to figure out that Almea wasn't the same as Oikumene. (The biggest clue was the different length of the year!)

Actually, I think that having an extra two moons in the sky would be a big clue (not to mention different constellations). Mind you, to "pre-modern" people, that might not have been an automatic factor.

I think premodern peoples aren't that thrown by the idea of other worlds. It's a big deal to us because we think of ourselves as living on a single planet very far from any others. But pre-industrial peoples generally have cosmologies that feature other realms of being, other beings (whether simply other species, or gods, or devils), other creations. And the Almeans, of course, really do have other intelligent species around. So the major impact on them would be to confirm the existing idea that other worlds exist.

It's true that in the past, the "supernatural" was often taken as a matter of course; the Bible and Koran accept the existence of angels, evil spirits, and (in the Koran) djinn quite easily compared with most modern scientific views, and other traditions do the same (often to a greater extent). I agree that the arrival of the Elenicoi and their subsequent influence would have been a major event; still, they were very few, arrived peacefully, and at first, were unable to speak the language or communicate about themselves or their culture. Even later, I doubt that many Almeans were fluent in Greek; it would have been more logical for the Elenecoi, as a small group, to learn the local language.

Even so, I agree that there ought to be some influences--primarily among the Eledhe. It would be interesting to see the ways in which Christianity and Arashat, and their attendant histories and traditions, merged. (After all, Christianity in 325 was a relatively young faith and newly established as the state religion of Rome (although it had deep past roots in Judaism
and the influence of Greek thought), while Arashat had more three thousand years of its own hisory, from supremacy in Cuezi to persecution in Cadhinas, and back to legitimacy.)

Still, I've concentrated on Verduria much more than ?renat, where Elenico influence was concentrated. There might be more Hellenistic influence there than I've found elsewhere.

Also an interesting thought; it would be neat some day to see some of the other countries of the Plain (Erenat, Ismahi, etc.) in more detail.

p@,
Glenn

[zompist]

At first, of course, both sides thought that they were dealing with people from the same planet. It took some time to figure out that Almea wasn't the same as Oikumene. (The biggest clue was the different length of the year!)

Actually, I think that having an extra two moons in the sky would be a big clue (not to mention different constellations). Mind you, to "pre-modern" people, that might not have been an automatic factor.

D'oh! Forgot about the moons!

The constellations may have been a clue, but remember that Erel?e is in the southern hemisphere-- the stars would be different if the the Greeks made it to our southern hemisphere too.

(There's a line in LOTR that always bugged me-- Strider says he's been as far as Rh?n "where the stars are strange". They wouldn't be; Rh?n is in the east.)

[Neek]

(There's a line in LOTR that always bugged me-- Strider says he's been as far as Rh?n "where the stars are strange". They wouldn't be; Rh?n is in the east.)

What's wrong with that statement? Apparently Rh?n enjoys river dance stars and silent movie drama stars. Weird place, if you ask me.

I think premodern peoples aren't that thrown by the idea of other worlds. It's a big deal to us because we think of ourselves as living on a single planet very far from any others. But pre-industrial peoples generally have cosmologies that feature other realms of being, other beings (whether simply other species, or gods, or devils), other creations. And the Almeans, of course, really do have other intelligent species around. So the major impact on them would be to confirm the existing idea that other worlds exist.

All depends. Mexico valley was scared at the arrival of the white man after a shipwreck left one stranded (10 years before Cort?s). Just one, and the whole landmass knew it. And of the different species: in the average persons life, how many non-species will a person see?

I like the idea of people fearing an invasion. However, once it was decided that the Elenicoi had arrived by miracle, I think fears would be dissipated, all the more so since there's been no repeat of it.

This right here would be depedentent on how the Elenicoi responed. If there were a Roman conspirator, hoping to craft his own SPQR, would that have changed the story? I would enjoy to read of first contact, misconceptions of both sides, and in any case, the hostility and distancing between the Elenicoi. And honestly, how would you say Amazon in Barakhinei?[/quote]

[NP]

(There's a line in LOTR that always bugged me-- Strider says he's been as far as Rh?n "where the stars are strange". They wouldn't be; Rh?n is in the east.)

The full LOTR quote is:

I have crossed many mountains and many rivers, and trodden many plains, even into the far countries of Rh?n and Harad where the stars are strange.

The obvious solution is to interpret "where the stars are strange" as modifying Harad only and not Rh?n. Harad is, of course, in the south, where at least some of the stars would be strange.

Indeed, the following note appears in Unfinished Tales, on page 402:

The 'strange stars' apply strictly only to the Harad, and must mean that Aragorn travelled or voyaged some distance into the southern hemisphere. [Author's note.]

[GreenBowTie]

Are there Almeans who dismiss the Oikumenian immigration as a silly myth? It seems to me that there would probably be some.

[pne]

Sort of like those people who believe the whole "man on the moon" thing is a myth?

[Glenn]

Actually, I would say that it would be easier for many Almeans to dismiss the Elenicoi's otherworldly origins as a myth; after all, there weren't that many Elenecoi, and they're long dead now. Who saw where they came from? Where's the proof? Easier to believe that Christianity was a religion from elsewhere in Almea; if not for the fact that the Elenecoi spoke Greek (no universal translators) and brought their own complete language and history, it would have been easier for the Kebreni rulers to declare the whole thing an Avelan hoax, created to stir up rebellion.

p@,
Glenn

[Raphael]

I think premodern peoples aren't that thrown by the idea of other worlds. It's a big deal to us because we think of ourselves as living on a single planet very far from any others. But pre-industrial peoples generally have cosmologies that feature other realms of being, other beings (whether simply other species, or gods, or devils), other creations. And the Almeans, of course, really do have other intelligent species around. So the major impact on them would be to confirm the existing idea that other worlds exist.

All depends. Mexico valley was scared at the arrival of the white man after a shipwreck left one stranded (10 years before Cort?s). Just one, and the whole landmass knew it.

Jared Diamond also mentions in The Third Chimpanzee that many pre-modern tribes were very shocked when the first Western explorers arrived, even before they knew what they were up to. Someone from an originally isolated community that was contacted by the modern world during his lifetime and later learned the Western calendar would probably put the date of the first contact into that community's version of the culture test.

BTW, did Avelans or Verdurians ever wonder about odd similarities between the terran languages they know now and their own, caused by the fact that the inventor of their world put so many words from Earth into their language?