Teneo soa dro

[Gareth Wilson]

Teneo soa dro? ilavren misuril. Tu bruhmu nibkio dy mizeo ak len im sud?n. Teneo soa dro? sfahen ad amrabom?n, er tenec amrabom ic? pro nib?n cueseon. Esli rho plateu and amrabom?n, ur? tu toshuvmu amrabom and len ne rhucoristen kundimon. Esce cumprenei?
(This was inspired by a TV cop's boast that she could Mirandize in six languages. I don't think this was one of them.)

[Jaaaaaa]

...wha?

[zompist]

(This was inspired by a TV cop's boast that she could Mirandize in six languages. I don't think this was one of them.)

Aren't you a New Zealander? (It's an oddity of our world that, thanks to TV, many non-Americans know American law and court procedure better than their own...)

[Gareth Wilson]

>Aren't you a New Zealander?
Yes. We have a similar warning but it's phrased less dramatically and we're more familar with the American one via TV. Of course Veduria won't have any equivalent of this now, but they might in the future.

[Thomas Winwood]

British equivalent: You are under arrest for <crime>. You do not have to say anything, though it may harm your defence if you do not say when questioned something which you later rely on in court. Anything you do say may be given in evidence.

[zompist]

Oog. I will do all I can to prevent the Verdurians from sitting slack-jawed in front of the tube, watching "The Sopranos".

BTW, nice job on the Verdurian. I was wondering for a moment if it should use le, but on reflection I think you got it right: legal contexts would use le, because Cadhinor did.

[Raphael]

Sometimes I find it amusing that courts in American SF movies and TV series, no matter how alien they are, almost always use vaguely American court procedures- even when the whole thing is supposed to take place in a brutal dictatorship.

[Legros]

French equivalent: the right not to answer questions has to be formally notified before any question can be asked.

Most people here watch American serials on TV. Then they wonder why the French police never have mandats de perquisition (search warrants). In fact, search warrants do not exist in France, although searches always have to be legally justified.

Judges are similarly baffled when witnesses want to take oath on the Bible. There's no such thing here: people will lie anyway, oath or no oath Then why add perjury to an economical of the truth statement?

Fun: French patrolmen managed to have their k?pis replaced by American caps about twenty years ago. Their main argument was that they felt ridiculous with the k?pis. I guess that they wanted to look like Paul Newman in "The Policeman"

[Raphael]

AFAK, the formal information is given before the first interrogation in Germany, too. Normally, the cops need a warrant, but in an emergency they can search a flat without one, too. (They just have to convince the judge that it was an emergency afterwards).

Witnesses only have to take oath after their interrogation, and just if a) they're not related to the victim or the defendant and b) the court thinks what they said is believeable enough.

Ah yes, and Merry Christmas to all of you. Im ci-zonán, e otál ti-neyzhe!

[zompist]

Fun: French patrolmen managed to have their k?pis replaced by American caps about twenty years ago. Their main argument was that they felt ridiculous with the k?pis. I guess that they wanted to look like Paul Newman in "The Policeman"

I remember that news item... I was a bit disappointed; I liked the k?pis... what's the point of travelling if every place wants to look like America...?

[Aidan]

Witnesses only have to take oath after their interrogation, and just if . . . the court thinks what they said is believeable enough.

Laughing, laughing.

[So Haleza Grise]

Here it's not compulsory to notify suspect of rights at time of arrest, so long as they do so before interrogation.

Oh, and I think sf judicial procedures usually resemble those of the US much more than slightly. Even the most evil alien race has a judicial system notably less alien than, eg. the French.

I guess it's because there's some sort of mystique associated with cross-examination, it's supposed to be inherently dramatic. Maybe the sci-fi writers of the world need to be shown that there is definitely such a thing as tedious cross-examinations . .

There also aren't any examples of anachronisms in alien courts (other than the usual space opera mixing of feudalism and swords with interplanetary colonisation and blasters, etc), such as abound around here - wigs, gowns, proclamations with "oyez . . ."

[Legros]

Judges are similarly baffled when witnesses want to take oath on the Bible. There's no such thing here.

To complete my posting:

Witnesses take oath in some circumstances, and so do experts (e.g. forensic experts). What is unknown here is to take oath on the Bible or on any other book. People pr?tent serment conform?ment ? la loi and that's enough.

Even the most evil alien race has a judicial system notably less alien than, eg. the French.

Don't rely on the tabloids for information, So Haleza Grise!

[So Haleza Grise]

Don't rely on the tabloids for information, So Haleza Grise!

I'm not . . . I haven't done any comparitive law, but a couple of my friends have. Particularly, i'm referring to the inquisitorial process rather than the adversarial, the lack of jury trials (every Space Race always has a jury), but also other things, like the civil law rather than common law approach. I mean, Queensland has a Criminal Code, as do some other states in Australia, but its interpretation is subject to the rules of precedent. So case law is important even there.

Of course, there could also be Iron Curtain-style trials, where guilt or innocence depends on the court's interpretation of Marx.

[eodrakken]

I guess it's because there's some sort of mystique associated with cross-examination, it's supposed to be inherently dramatic. Maybe the sci-fi writers of the world need to be shown that there is definitely such a thing as tedious cross-examinations . .

I thought we were still talking about questioning by police, in which case I think you mean "interrogation". Cross-examination takes place during a trial -- it's the questioning of a defense witness by the prosecution, or of a prosecution witness by the defense.

Topic! What kind of criminal justice procedures are followed on your conworlds? I have to admit that's an area I've skimped on, even though I enjoy reading about the law.

[Drydic]

Topic! What kind of criminal justice procedures are followed on your conworlds? I have to admit that's an area I've skimped on, even though I enjoy reading about the law.

I haven't fleshed mine out either, but it is based on blood feuding, with a concept of wergeld, (in Drydicam, kjaudr).

[Legros]

Don't rely on the tabloids for information, So Haleza Grise!

I'm not . . . I haven't done any comparitive law, but a couple of my friends have. Particularly, i'm referring to the inquisitorial process rather than the adversarial, the lack of jury trials (every Space Race always has a jury), but also other things, like the civil law rather than common law approach. I mean, Queensland has a Criminal Code, as do some other states in Australia, but its interpretation is subject to the rules of precedent. So case law is important even there.

Of course, there could also be Iron Curtain-style trials, where guilt or innocence depends on the court's interpretation of Marx.

The French / continental European judicial system (inspired by the Napoleonic codes of law) is different from the Anglo-Saxon one, but it isn't really alien.

A few facts: we have jury trials for serious crimes (homicides, rapes, armed robberies, etc), but not for theft, financial fraud or assault. The Blair government is actually trying to reduce jury trial in the UK (too expensive). British civil justice has been very recently reformed to be more alike the French system, which is, if anything, cheaper for the average citizen. The rule of precedent exists in French law: it is called jurisprudence. It is less systematic than in the Anglo-Saxon system, though.

Our judicial system is becoming less inquisitorial and more adversarial, due to European Union influence. An inquisitorial system doesn't mean, however, that the investigating magistrate is an inquisitor ? la Torquemada. Quite the reverse: it is much more difficult to jail someone in France than in the US or in the UK. Prisoners for 100,000 residents: France: 80. UK: 124. USA: 5 or 6 times more.

Back to topic: a "Torquemada" system of justice is interesting for a conworld. Especially for a conworld in which you wouldn't live. It is both ruthless and effective, and easy to conceive. What is difficult is to keep it reasonably fair.

[Raphael]

The French / continental European judicial system (inspired by the Napoleonic codes of law) is different from the Anglo-Saxon one, but it isn't really alien.

I think Chris just wanted to point out that alien courts in US SF are often even less alien than French courts. (Or continental European ones, for that matter; most of the stuff quoted below applies to German courts as well)

A few facts: we have jury trials for serious crimes (homicides, rapes, armed robberies, etc), but not for theft, financial fraud or assault.

We have jurors for serious crimes, but they are ordinary members of the court, just like the professional judges involved.

The rule of precedent exists in French law: it is called jurisprudence. It is less systematic than in the Anglo-Saxon system, though.

I think it's mostly the same here, though Supreme Court decisions are universally binding. However, the most important sources for the interpretation of law are the comments of respected scholars.

As for the "inquisitorial" thing, courts in Germany have the right to interrogate the witnesses (even before the attorneys have done that), so they are actually more like an enquiry commission than like a referee, but I think this would only become a problem if the defense attorneys wouldn't be allowed to do their jobs.

(In theory, public attorneys also have to search for evidence that supports the defendant just as much as for evidence against him)

Two minor tidbits: The chairing judge in a German trial (like most people who chair something over here) uses a bell instead of a hammer. And no German judge is addressed with "Your Honor". (How a judge is addressed depends on his position in the trial). I was partly thinking of stuff like this when I wrote my first post to this thread.

Back to topic: a "Torquemada" system of justice is interesting for a conworld. Especially for a conworld in which you wouldn't live. It is both ruthless and effective, and easy to conceive. What is difficult is to keep it reasonably fair.

Is it really that effective? How likely is it that, if someone innocent has already been punished for a crime, they'll investigate further until they find the one who actually did it?

Or that someone with good relations to the inquisitors gets punished? (Though competing cliques within the system might make sure that each others members get punished when they commit crimes)

[Legros]

Back to topic: a "Torquemada" system of justice is interesting for a conworld. Especially for a conworld in which you wouldn't live. It is both ruthless and effective, and easy to conceive. What is difficult is to keep it reasonably fair.

Is it really that effective? How likely is it that, if someone innocent has already been punished for a crime, they'll investigate further until they find the one who actually did it?

Or that someone with good relations to the inquisitors gets punished? (Though competing cliques within the system might make sure that each others members get punished when they commit crimes)

When I wrote "effective" I meant: effective for the local rulers, like the Torquemada inquisition was effective in enforcing religious rule and eliminating religious minorities in 15th century Spain. Protecting the innocent wasn't something they cared for. Quite the reverse: their policies deliberately terrorized people. As I already said, such a system of justice is interesting for a conworld in which you wouldn't live