Where are the Almean nutball religions?

[Adso de Fimnu]

Though a few Almean religions, like Mešaism, have unpleasant elements to them, it seems that there's not really anything analogous to Dominionism or Islamism in the known regions of Almea (except, perhaps, uh, Gelalhát?).
Jippirasti inspired several religious wars, but even then, they seem rather tame compared to the ugliness religion has inspired in our world. And I don't see modern Jippirasti calling for crusades to convert, say, Xurno. As for other religions, it seems they are remarkably tolerant compared with those of Occidental civilization.

I am inclined to wonder: is the lack of really unpleasant religions merely the result of a lack of environments conducive to aggressive fundamentalism? Or is it a conscious choice to omit such things from Almea?

[zompist]

A possible counter-question might be, how many really unpleasant religions are there on Earth? With the exception of Christianity and Islam, most terrestrial religions seem able to coexist pretty well. Ancient Rome and Persia, pre-Islamic Arabia, and and medieval China all had a mixture of religions.

There have been religious persecutions on Almea: the Cadhinorians suppressed Cuzeian theism; the Jippirasti pressured their conquests to convert. Bezuxao is rather nasty in its way, as is Gelalhat. (In recent centuries Dhekhnam, perhaps examining the spread of Eledhat, has attempted to export Gelalhat, though it's succeeded only in areas where its political influence is accepted.)

[Brel]

With the exception of Christianity and Islam, most terrestrial religions seem able to coexist pretty well.

The difference is that Christianity and Islam also happen to be by far the most prevalent religions on Earth, and the influence of their most dangerous fringes has been growing, not lessening. Are there or will there be similar trends on Almea? What is the largest religion there currently, anyway?

Aside from that, belief systems entirely unconcerned with the supernatural can also be unable to coexist with other systems very peacefully, e.g. Communism and fascism.

[Aurora Rossa]

A possible counter-question might be, how many really unpleasant religions are there on Earth? Smile With the exception of Christianity and Islam, most terrestrial religions seem able to coexist pretty well. Ancient Rome and Persia, pre-Islamic Arabia, and and medieval China all had a mixture of religions.

Didn't the ancient Roman religion persecute Jews and Christians, though? And didn't countless religions practice human sacrifice as well (certainly I can point to a few definite examples)?

[Adso de Fimnu]

A possible counter-question might be, how many really unpleasant religions are there on Earth?

If I could only ask Earth's creator that, then I'd be all set.

The difference is that Christianity and Islam also happen to be by far the most prevalent religions on Earth, and the influence of their most dangerous fringes has been growing, not lessening.

I don't know about Islam, but we can hope, perhaps, that the power of the shrillest conservative Christians is beginning to wane in the U.S. (Cf. Zompist's latest rant).

Didn't the ancient Roman religion persecute Jews and Christians, though?

Ah yes, but I've heard that was for more political reasons than religious ones, what with monotheists refusing to worship the Emperor and all...

[Brel]

I don't know about Islam, but we can hope, perhaps, that the power of the shrillest conservative Christians is beginning to wane in the U.S. (Cf. Zompist's latest rant).

Even if that is true, its effects will take a while to be felt.

[Aurora Rossa]

Ah yes, but I've heard that was for more political reasons than religious ones, what with monotheists refusing to worship the Emperor and all...

Well true, but didn't politics and religion have a much tighter relationship back then, given that the concept of church-state separation wouldn't have existed yet AFAIK?

[Salmoneus]

But the point is that it's not that the roman religion said 'burn all infidels!' - it's that the Emperor said 'hey, these people don't like me, let's burn them before they revolt'.

I think historically Islam has been broadly tolerant of other religions as well. Islamic states did, of course, not treat non-Muslims the same as Muslims, but you wouldn't expect them to - democracy and individualism didn't really exist as ideas to that extent. And non-Abrahamic religions were suppressed, but I don't think there was ever the sort of fanatical persecution that we see from most of the history of christianity, or from some sections of modern islam.

[Miekko]

But the point is that it's not that the roman religion said 'burn all infidels!' - it's that the Emperor said 'hey, these people don't like me, let's burn them before they revolt'.

I think historically Islam has been broadly tolerant of other religions as well. Islamic states did, of course, not treat non-Muslims the same as Muslims, but you wouldn't expect them to - democracy and individualism didn't really exist as ideas to that extent. And non-Abrahamic religions were suppressed, but I don't think there was ever the sort of fanatical persecution that we see from most of the history of christianity, or from some sections of modern islam.

Various groups like the Yazidi and such have historically been hit hard, but the fact that the Yazidi, the Zoroastrians, the Ibadi, Druze, Samaritans and Dönmeh even _exist_ to this day (contrast with, for instance, Katars or Bogomils or any pre-Christian paganism) is indicative of this being an accurate assessment.

[zompist]

With the exception of Christianity and Islam, most terrestrial religions seem able to coexist pretty well.

The difference is that Christianity and Islam also happen to be by far the most prevalent religions on Earth, and the influence of their most dangerous fringes has been growing, not lessening.

For Christianity, I think this is backwards: the Inquisition, the Crusades, the witch trials, imperial evangelism, and the pogroms are behind us-- the present-day religious right is just a minor convulsion backwards.

Islamic extremism is highly uncharacteristic of Islam (though of course it's been an imperial religion).

[zompist]

Are there or will there be similar trends on Almea? What is the largest religion there currently, anyway?

In terms of numbers, probably Gelalhat.

Probably things will look different in a few centuries, as colonialism and industralization really take off. The Verdurians and Kebreni are no better people than the Europeans.

Endajue and Bezuxao are non-theistic in orientation, and in some ways Revaudo and Bezuxao are the first modern belief systems on Almea.

(I've split my reply because if the terrestrial discussion continues, I'll probably move it.)

[Salmoneus]

I don't understand - how does a nihilist cult assemble an army of terrorists? Since for a nihilist there is no reason to be a terrorist, nor to assemble terrorists, and there is, moreover, no reason for such a terrorist to choose one target over another (or even over themselves, or their allies), how could they organise anything? For a nihilist, there is no value to obeying orders. But then, for a nihilist, there is no reason to spread nihilism to others, so why did anyone bother? Why didn't they just sit in their own rooms and starve, or decide their actions by rolling dice?

And have there ever been any nihilist movements (even intellectual ones) on Earth?

[Aurora Rossa]

I thought the general definition of nihilism in that context referred to people intent on destroying the status quo for its own sake, sort of like the common perception of anarchy. I recall such people existing in 19th century Russia (maybe in one of Dostoevsky's books as well).

Islamic extremism is highly uncharacteristic of Islam (though of course it's been an imperial religion).

It is? I find that somewhat strange considering what I have read in textbooks and on Wikipedia, which seemed to suggest a faith almost as aggressive and oppressive as Catholicism, if not its equal for all practical purposes.

[Exez]

I don't understand - how does a nihilist cult assemble an army of terrorists? Since for a nihilist there is no reason to be a terrorist, nor to assemble terrorists, and there is, moreover, no reason for such a terrorist to choose one target over another (or even over themselves, or their allies), how could they organise anything? For a nihilist, there is no value to obeying orders. But then, for a nihilist, there is no reason to spread nihilism to others, so why did anyone bother? Why didn't they just sit in their own rooms and starve, or decide their actions by rolling dice?

And have there ever been any nihilist movements (even intellectual ones) on Earth?

I think that what you describe is REAL theoretical (extreme) nihillism. But I think such pure nihilism is against human (or uestuan) nature. Anyone claiming he is a nihilist, would only have common points to the 'theoretical' nihilism and no way could manage to reach this level, as you describe it.

So perhaps uses the word 'nihilist' in referring to human-level nihilism

[Salmoneus]

I thought the general definition of nihilism in that context referred to people intent on destroying the status quo for its own sake, sort of like the common perception of anarchy. I recall such people existing in 19th century Russia (maybe in one of Dostoevsky's books as well).

Nihilism was indeed the word for a Russian political movement, and has sometimes been used as a synonym for 'anarchist' (whether the Russian Nihilists were actually anarchist is debated, iirc).

However, Mark describes the philosophy as actually being nihilist (unlike the philosophies of historical anarchists, which were anything but) - the absence of gods, the absence of a distinction between good and evil, the absence of value in the world. The question is, without morality, and without the values that we base our decision on, why would the people following this nihilism be organised into a single group following a single leader and fullfilling his aims? Why does he even have aims, if what he aims at is neither better nor more valuable than any other course?

[Salmoneus]

I don't understand - how does a nihilist cult assemble an army of terrorists? Since for a nihilist there is no reason to be a terrorist, nor to assemble terrorists, and there is, moreover, no reason for such a terrorist to choose one target over another (or even over themselves, or their allies), how could they organise anything? For a nihilist, there is no value to obeying orders. But then, for a nihilist, there is no reason to spread nihilism to others, so why did anyone bother? Why didn't they just sit in their own rooms and starve, or decide their actions by rolling dice?

And have there ever been any nihilist movements (even intellectual ones) on Earth?

I think that what you describe is REAL theoretical (extreme) nihillism. But I think such pure nihilism is against human (or uestuan) nature. Anyone claiming he is a nihilist, would only have common points to the 'theoretical' nihilism and no way could manage to reach this level, as you describe it.

So perhaps uses the word 'nihilist' in referring to human-level nihilism

But on earth, 'nihilism' has always been a phantom, an accusation. It's chief use (like 'relativism', or the 'skepticism' that modern analytic philosophy is obsessed with refuting*) is in the sentence 'but that opens the door to nihilism!'. I'm not sure anyone other than the odd fleeting teenage rebellion phase that didn't know what the word meant has ever admitted to actually being a nihilist (with the possible exception of dADA, which didn't last long).

[zompist]

From some earlier replies on the old board:

Rather as on Earth, nihilism is rarely taken to its logical extreme (e.g. suicide and despair). As such it can serve as a radical expression of dissent. The Cheiyu found Bezuxao attractive in their struggle against the Xurnese; and not a few Xurnese enjoyed its caustic cynicism. As well, Bezuxao has positive elements-- though these are mostly enjoyed by means of drug-induced trances. Followers hint that these trances reveal the real structure of the universe, but believing that all communication distorts, they are strictly forbidden to describe them or base doctrines on them.

[...] As for Bezuxao... think of it as a cult, of the sort that cuts off adherents from all other allegiances, preaches absolute devotion to the leaders, and ends often enough in death. The nihilism is used as a tool to break previous attachments; initiates are also forced to commit crimes and perversions, in order to cement their ties to the group. Various rewards, ranging from the crassly material to the arcanely spiritual, are promised to those who undertake dangerous missions for the leadership.

[Aurora Rossa]

Ah, understood, Sal. By the way, I had a philosophy professor last year who said pretty much the same thing, always trying to attack nihilism, or his favorite bugbear, relativism, at every turn as he accused everything from Victoria's Secret to Bill Clinton of relativism.

[hwhatting]

I recall such people existing in 19th century Russia (maybe in one of Dostoevsky's books as well).

What you think of is probably the terrorist cell described in Dostoevsky's Besy (is it really called "The Possessed" in English?).

[Salmoneus]

Zompist: ahh, thanks. I can go along with nihilist rhetoric being a tool for alienation.

Eddy: Nietzsche, of course, once off-handedly refered to 'Christians and other nihilists'. One of his better qualities as a writer, I've always thought, is the way that he can throw buckets of freezing water in the faces of his readers without even stopping for breath. Less hubristic writers can take pages, even chapters, to build up to such contrarian utterances.

hwhatting: Yes, traditionally it is 'The Possessed', which is all I've ever heard of. This has been reinforced by becoming the title of the Camus play (which I heard of before the book, actually). Also referenced in Le Guin's post-revolutionary novel The Dispossessed. Wikipedia tells me that modern editions are called Demons, or else The Devils, and that 'The Possessed' is no longer found. I wouldn't know about it - I don't speak Russian and I haven't read the book.

What I personally would associate, literarally, with Russian nihilism would be the play, "Vera; or, The Nihilists". Which, despite being by Wilde, I haven't actually read either.

Of course, a really good novel about Russian nihilism would be "Under Western Eyes", by Conrad, although I'm not sure it ever uses the word 'nihilism'.

[Glenn]

I recall such people existing in 19th century Russia (maybe in one of Dostoevsky's books as well).

What you think of is probably the terrorist cell described in Dostoevsky's Besy (is it really called "The Possessed" in English?).

Yes, but not only. The Possessed is the best-known title in English, but it has also been published as The Devils and more recently as Demons. I have seen example of the first two, but not the third. (Edit: Wikipedia gives The Possessed as the title of the original 1916 translation by Constance Garrett, and Demons as that of a 1995 translation by Pevear and Volokhonsky, but I'm pretty sure that there have been others in between.) There is also the self-proclaimed nihilist in Turgenev's novel Fathers and Sons (Otsy i deti).

I personally would not mind learning more about both Endajue and Bezuxao (which, in its cult form, is clearly inspired in part by the medieval Assassins (Hashashin), complete with Shushimbor as a sea-girt Alamut. However, I expect that Mark can point out many differences as well.)

p@,
Glenn

EDIT: Sal beat me to it with regard to Dostoevsky; the Wikipedia entry also has a note or two on differing interpretations of the Russian title.

[hwhatting]

@ Salmoneus, Glenn:

Thanks for the info. Both "The Devils" and "The Demons" better translate the Russian title; in German, it's known as "Die Dämonen".

[BGMan]

From some earlier replies on the old board:

Rather as on Earth, nihilism is rarely taken to its logical extreme (e.g. suicide and despair). As such it can serve as a radical expression of dissent. The Cheiyu found Bezuxao attractive in their struggle against the Xurnese; and not a few Xurnese enjoyed its caustic cynicism. As well, Bezuxao has positive elements-- though these are mostly enjoyed by means of drug-induced trances. Followers hint that these trances reveal the real structure of the universe, but believing that all communication distorts, they are strictly forbidden to describe them or base doctrines on them.

[...] As for Bezuxao... think of it as a cult, of the sort that cuts off adherents from all other allegiances, preaches absolute devotion to the leaders, and ends often enough in death. The nihilism is used as a tool to break previous attachments; initiates are also forced to commit crimes and perversions, in order to cement their ties to the group. Various rewards, ranging from the crassly material to the arcanely spiritual, are promised to those who undertake dangerous missions for the leadership.

Here on Earth, it seems that Buddhism is the closest thing we have to a nihilistic religion, aside from possibly atheism.

At any rate, it's interesting to note birth rates among different groups on Earth. I imagine that if birth control becomes common among groups in Erelae, I'd expect to see practitioners of Bezuxao with the lowest birth rates, sort of like atheistic Europeans and urban East Asians here. (Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea are fretting about their fertility rates of around 1.0 child per woman, which would halve the size of each succeeding generation.)

[Miekko]

Here on Earth, it seems that Buddhism is the closest thing we have to a nihilistic religion, aside from possibly atheism.

Aren't you forgetting Jainism there? Arguably the teachings of it outnihilist buddhism at times.

[-]

Ummm, neither Buddhism or Jainism have anything to do with nihilism unless you're employing an idiosyncratic definition of the term, and atheism is not a religion -- it's a feature of various belief systems.