Number of speakers

[daan]

Just being curious, how many speakers do the languages of Almea have? I remember that the number of speakers of Verdurian can be found somewhere on zompist.com, but how about Barakhinei, Ismahi, Flaidish, Kebreni and Xurnese?

[Ghost]

Well, I've started learning Ismain, and AFAIK I'm the only one, although I'm very probably wrong...

I've seen Nikolai posting in Cadhinor, Pentekonter in Wede:i and Kebreni, and SHG in Barakhinei, and I'm sure there's more...

Ghost

[Nuntar]

Verdurian ? known to its speakers as soa Sfahe, the Speech ? is the language of about 55 million people in the Cadhinorian Plain in the southern hemisphere of Almea.

I can't find any info on the number of speakers of other languages.

[Ghost]

Ooops! Read your question wrong. Sorry.

Ghost

[insumaro]

Pentekonter in Wede:i and Kebreni

Heh, I'm by no means fluent with either of them. I just whipped out the grammar and lexicon and did my sentances. I wonder what the bilingual demographics are on Almea.

[Whimemsz]

Well, I've started learning Ismain, and AFAIK I'm the only one, although I'm very probably wrong...

Well, I started learning Isma?n yesterday, so you're no longer the only one.

[Glenn]

Here is a link to my very first post ever on the Virtual Verduria board , where I asked a related question on the number of Verdurian-speakers vs. the population of Verduria itself; Mark, in replying, mulled over a revision of the figure in the Verdurian grammar and gave an estimate of the total uesti population of eastern Erelae. Hope that helps!

p@,
Glenn

[Glenn]

A side note...good luck to Ghost and Whimemsz in learning Ismain. In the past, I've taught myself enough Verdurian and Elkaril to write a post or two in both languages (and had fun both times), but not enough to actually function in them, alas.

I wouldn't mind taking the time someday to learn one of Mark's languages better (at least, one of those developed enough to really learn). Unfortunately, I don't know which one I'd try--I like them all, and I can't say I really have any favorites, although some might be more likely candidates than others. (While Verdurian and Elkaril were fun, I also like Barakhinei. Or Flaidish. Or Wede:i, maybe even... More recently, I've thought that Cuezi in particular might be a tongue worth investigating further. )

p@,
Glenn

[Neek]

For the record, I've done nothing in Cadhinorian. I have, however, tried to write poetry in Barakhinei (called the d?shtora, I *think*), and I've written various posts in illegible Verdurian.

I am in the process of translating the first chapter of Emia into Verdurian, hopefully with good results. I love Verdurian, I really do, and if I could, I'd want to know it as a 2nd language.

[valinta]

I am learning Wede:i, which is not proving too difficult for me, due to its aggluginative nature (I love those) and the Japanese (long vowels)/Chinese(? and ?)-style phonology that I feel comfortable with. I am also doing Verd?rian on the side because, well, it's Verd?rian. Verd?rian is my first experience learning a European-style inflecting language, and I have to say it's definitely interesting. The lessons are structured well, which helps me overcome the unfamiliarity of the inflection system. I really want to learn Kebreni, just to be different (Kebreni doesn't seem to get much press), and I am eagerly anticipating Xurn??, but before I get into those I want to bite the bullet and finally get around to learning Finnish. Ismain looks like fun, but I will probably never work out how to pronounce it, no matter how many times I listen to that sound clip .

[zompist]

Fs?gd? et rave kiam so zhen divre sfahem es?. Hoyan eshele mudhe iscun esli fsya divricele soa nen? sfaha.

The eventual First Zompistry Convention will dissolve into no doubt mutually antagonistic factions. "Verdurian is better!" "No, Xurnese is, royalist scum!" "Jippir curse the lot of you infidels!"

[Aurora Rossa]

I certainly couldn't learn Verd?rian. I couldn't learn hundreds of inflections. Good luck, Valinta.

[vohpenonomae]

I certainly couldn't learn Verd?rian. I couldn't learn hundreds of inflections.

Then you could never learn a polylang.

[Whimemsz]

The eventual First Zompistry Convention will dissolve into no doubt mutually antagonistic factions. "Verdurian is better!" "No, Xurnese is, royalist scum!" "Jippir curse the lot of you infidels!"

Fool! It's Isma?n!

[Aurora Rossa]

Then you could never learn a polylang.

Polylangs are mainly agglutinative. You said so yourself that they don't have irregular verbs. Verd?rian has the case, gender, and number all in one inflection. As though that wasn't bad enough, there are different sets of these inflections for different declenations and conjugations. Finally, the huge number of irregular nouns and verbs is quite dificult. English has a lot of irregular verbs, but compared to the number of verbs in total, it isn't so bad.

[vohpenonomae]

Polylangs are mainly agglutinative.

No they're not. It depends on the family. Algonquian is agglutinative; Iroqouois is fusional.

Verd?rian has the case, gender, and number all in one inflection.

Mohawk has person, number and gender of both agent and patient encoded in one inflection. That's a big step beyond Verdurian.

As though that wasn't bad enough, there are different sets of these inflections for different declenations and conjugations. Finally, the huge number of irregular nouns and verbs is quite dificult. English has a lot of irregular verbs, but compared to the number of verbs in total, it isn't so bad.

Polylangs have their own kinds of irregularity that make them every bit as complicated as Verudurian or any other European-style language.

[Aurora Rossa]

No they're not. It depends on the family. Algonquian is agglutinative; Iroqouois is fusional.

Mohawk has person, number and gender of both agent and patient encoded in one inflection. That's a big step beyond Verdurian.

Good point.

Polylangs have their own kinds of irregularity that make them every bit as complicated as Verudurian or any other European-style language.

I'm not denying that, it's just that 500 completely different inflections for regular words alone are a huge tax on the memory.

[vohpenonomae]

Polylangs have their own kinds of irregularity that make them every bit as complicated as Verudurian or any other European-style language.

I'm not denying that, it's just that 500 completely different inflections for regular words alone are a huge tax on the memory.[/quote]

Verdurian has around 60 inflections for nouns, covering masculine and feminine genders in the four declensions and singular and plural for each of its four cases. It has, in addition, about 70 personal endings for verbs, covering three paradigms for the four tenses. There are nothing like 500 inflections.

[Aurora Rossa]

Verdurian has around 60 inflections for nouns, covering masculine and feminine genders in the four declensions and singular and plural for each of its four cases. It has, in addition, about 70 personal endings for verbs, covering three paradigms for the four tenses. There are nothing like 500 inflections.

I see. I know Latin has 500 or so inflections and dozens of irregular words, though.

[Delthayre]

Verdurian has around 60 inflections for nouns, covering masculine and feminine genders in the four declensions and singular and plural for each of its four cases. It has, in addition, about 70 personal endings for verbs, covering three paradigms for the four tenses. There are nothing like 500 inflections.

I see. I know Latin has 500 or so inflections and dozens of irregular words, though.

I don't think that's quite accurate. If every declension was wholly unique that might hold true, but there's a great deal of overlap that keeps the numbers much lower (not that I can recall it). This does create ambiguity, but it's not really that bad.

I've found that no matter how intimidating or complicated a language may seem, it's probably quite learnable. German irregular verbs can be quite the annoyance, but I can manage with them finely enough (except "nehmen", I never got the hang of that one). Over a period of time, you get used to them and they become instinctive.

[CountJordan]

I'd like to learn an Almea language. I'm thinking about Verdurian since it has the most material. And a course

[zompist]

Inflections are intimidating to English speakers, but it's misleading. The good and the bad news is that learning the inflections is dwarfed by the problem of learning the vocabulary.

In my own experience, one can start by reading a grammar almost like a book, feeling that it isn't all that hard... and inevitably there's something that stops you short, something too big or complex to absorb without a good deal of effort. (Looking at languages from all over the world, this generally hits me in the verbs section.)

So that divides browsing a language from learning it. What divides studying from mastering the language, however, is not the grammar but the lexicon. This shouldn't be surprising if you compare (say) the few pages of a Russian grammar devoted to inflectional tables with the size of a good Russian dictionary.

[Glenn]

Inflections are intimidating to English speakers, but it's misleading. The good and the bad news is that learning the inflections is dwarfed by the problem of learning the vocabulary.

I fully agree with this--it was certainly my experience in learning Russian, which has an inflectional system similar in some respects (not all) to Verdurian (Funny, that... ). I was able to learn the structure of the grammar fairly easily over time, but vocabulary was the real challenge--and by far the most important one.

After all, it's the lexicon of the language that fills out its structure and enables its true purpose--communication: people exchanging information, discussing, chatting, arguing, celebrating, expressing their thoughts and their feelings. That's the step that turns a language one is learning from a fancy puzzle to a living thing, and it's a hard one for me, but very rewarding.

(I also know people, mostly good talkers and communicaters, who have done things the other way around, especially when learning a language "on the street"--starting with the vocabulary and everyday speech, and picking up the grammar on the fly as they go. There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods, and the particular language involved can have a lot to do with it.)

***
I can also assure Eddy, as other folks have done, that learning a language like Russian or Verdurian is not as great a tax on the memory as it might seem, especially since you're not learning individual inflections one by one, but patterns of inflections, which form a larger picture, and become quite automatic after a while. If anything, the way that inflections combine in a fusional language can make it "feel" as though you are using less of them than in an agglutinating one, where they are stacked on top of each other. (And I speak as someone who has studied languages of both types.)

At no time in learning Russian did I feel as though I were forced to swallow hundreds (or even dozens) of endings--partly because we were never taught them all at once: we spent a week or two examining one particular case, then moved on to another...And, of course, any specific noun or verb can only take a limited number of inflections itself.

In my own experience, one can start by reading a grammar almost like a book, feeling that it isn't all that hard... and inevitably there's something that stops you short, something too big or complex to absorb without a good deal of effort. (Looking at languages from all over the world, this generally hits me in the verbs section.)

Yep... In first-year Russian, I was able to pick up the basic declensions and conjugations without too much trouble, but the perfective vs. imperfective aspect of verbs (or, more specifically, the many ways in which it can be indicated) stopped me in my tracks. I'm pleased to say that I've learned a lot since then, however--still learning, though...

p@,
Glenn

[Raphael]

German irregular verbs can be quite the annoyance, but I can manage with them finely enough (except "nehmen", I never got the hang of that one).

Ich nehme, du nimmst, er/sie/es nimmt, wir nehmen, ihr nehmt, sie nehmen.

Ich nahm, du nahmst, er/sie/es nahm, wir nahmen, ihr nahmt, sie nahmen.

Ich habe genommen- for the rest, just decline "haben" while keeping the "genommen".

Ich hatte genommen- the rest like with "habe genommen".

Ich werde nehmen- rest like above.

Ich werde genommen haben- rest like above.

Note that in the cases where it turns into two or three words, you have to insert the object after the first of them.

Also note that the forms in the second paragraph are seldom used in everyday speech and almost never in colloquial speech- use the "haben" form instead- and that the forms in the last paragraph are used almost never.

[Ghost]

Well, I've started learning Ismain, and AFAIK I'm the only one, although I'm very probably wrong...

Well, I started learning Isma?n yesterday, so you're no longer the only one.

I'm curious - what inspired you to choose it? I wanted a fairly IE lang, trying to learn Elkaril would be too much for me. I also didn't want to learn Verdurian. So it was Cadhinor, Ismaîn or Barakhinei. Ismaîn appealed to me for some reason. I guess its phonology and history drew me.

Ghost