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Are EI and other diphthongs in Isma?n one sound, or seperate? Is Emei [EmEi]?

Ghost

Ghost wrote:Are EI and other diphthongs in Isma?n one sound, or seperate? Is Emei [EmEi]?

Separate, and each counts as a syllable, so it's [E 'mE i].

On the same subject, is the Isma?n /r/ pronounced [4] or [r]? What about /r=/, is it [4=], [r=], or [r\=]? Or something different?

Whimemsz wrote:On the same subject, is the Isma?n /r/ pronounced [4] or [r]? What about /r=/, is it [4=], [r=], or [r\=]? Or something different?

Oh, you kids and your SAMPA. It's intended to be an approximant, probably similar to an English (i.e. of England) r, but neither flapped nor trilled.

Whimz, as you know Mandarin, could you help me with the alveolo-palatal fricatives ? & j. They're a bit confusing to me.

zompist wrote:Oh, you kids and your SAMPA.

Ghost

? is basically a /S/ with the tongue raised so there's friction at the palate, as for /C/ (and as a result the tip is pushed forward a bit to become alveolar).

Ghost wrote:Whimz, as you know Mandarin, could you help me with the alveolo-palatal fricatives ? & j. They're a bit confusing to me.

I'm flattered that you'd ask me, especially since I know about 20 words in Mandarin. Nevertheless...

Like /S/, but laminal, would be a close approximation, I'd say. And <j> is the voiced version. In other words, what Pharazon said.

Whimemsz wrote:

Ghost wrote:Whimz, as you know Mandarin, could you help me with the alveolo-palatal fricatives ? & j. They're a bit confusing to me.

I'm flattered that you'd ask me, especially since I know about 20 words in Mandarin. Nevertheless...

Like /S/, but laminal, would be a close approximation, I'd say. And <j> is the voiced version. In other words, what Pharazon said.

Is not /S/ normally laminal?

Salmoneus wrote:

Whimemsz wrote:

Ghost wrote:Whimz, as you know Mandarin, could you help me with the alveolo-palatal fricatives ? & j. They're a bit confusing to me.

I'm flattered that you'd ask me, especially since I know about 20 words in Mandarin. Nevertheless...

Like /S/, but laminal, would be a close approximation, I'd say. And <j> is the voiced version. In other words, what Pharazon said.

Is not /S/ normally laminal?

And by "laminal", I of course mean "the thing after laminal, whatever that may be."

Salmoneus wrote:

Whimemsz wrote:Like /S/, but laminal, would be a close approximation, I'd say. And <j> is the voiced version. In other words, what Pharazon said.

Is not /S/ normally laminal?

Is it? I don't think so, it seems primarily apical to me, though there is a bit of lamina action.

IMI, its completely unapical. Tip of the tongue is behind the bottom gums. Except in /tS/, when it starts apical and moves laminal, but nnever as laminal as by itself.

Salmoneus wrote:IMI, its completely unapical. Tip of the tongue is behind the bottom gums. Except in /tS/, when it starts apical and moves laminal, but nnever as laminal as by itself.

The apex is the tip of the tongue, and the lamina the bit right behind it, to clear up any confusion.

Yes, I know. Although I think laminal refers to any sound where the articulator is the blade of the tongue, rather than the tip - no matter how far back from the tip it may be.

My /S/ has the frication caused by the blade, far back. My /tS/ has an apical /t/, and then the /S/ starts apical and moves back to laminal as the tongue moves forward. But this time it is the front of the blade, a short distance behind the tip.

Salmoneus wrote:Yes, I know. Although I think laminal refers to any sound where the articulator is the blade of the tongue, rather than the tip - no matter how far back from the tip it may be.

Quite right--poor wording on my part.

Salmoneus wrote:My /S/ has the frication caused by the blade, far back. My /tS/ has an apical /t/, and then the /S/ starts apical and moves back to laminal as the tongue moves forward. But this time it is the front of the blade, a short distance behind the tip.

That seems rather weird to me; I'm pretty sure my /tS/ and /S/ are both laminal, as is post-alveolar /t/ by itself (e.g. in select).