zompist bboard

A couple of questions to Zompist:

Do you have any idea about the Eynleyni languages in terms of their grammatical structure and sound system?

Also, what is meaning of the name "Eynleyni" itself?

Are there other lgs than Demoshi and Tyellakhi?

I've worked a fair amount on Dhekhnami, which promises to be fairly weird. But it's not anywhere near ready for viewing.

As I've gotten tired of the "languages of nasty people sound Germanic" meme, Dhekhnami is being revamped to sound pleasant.

So far it has a fairly complex verb system, which relies extensively on infixing and consonant change. The primary inflection is rank, rather than number and person.

Does that mean that you'll have to edit hundreds of pages to change all the place- and country names from Eynleyni languages we've seen so far?

Edit: And shouldn't you really be asleep now?

Personally I think /Dexnam/ and /cel:ax/ both sound quite nice...

zompist wrote:So far it has a fairly complex verb system, which relies extensively on infixing and consonant change. The primary inflection is rank, rather than number and person.

Hm... Sounds a little bit like the Monkhayic languages. Since the Monkhayu and Kebreni have the same greyish skin colour, are the two proto-langs related?

Actually I seem to remember that Eynleyni is related to Qarau...

Ok, new question. Is there a proto-Taese?

Gremlins wrote:Personally I think /Dexnam/ and /cel:ax/ both sound quite nice...

Isn't it pronounced /DeCnam/?

vecfaranti wrote:

Gremlins wrote:Personally I think /Dexnam/ and /cel:ax/ both sound quite nice...

Isn't it pronounced /DeCnam/?

I think a lot of what we know of Dhekhnami phonology is subject to revision, so it probably doesn't matter much.

The kh in Dhekhnam is indeed a [ç].

Yes, Qarau and Eynleyni are related. Anything higher-level should be considered Greenbergian.

With one exception, left as a lagniappe for the truly crazy Almeologists. It doesn't involve Eastern though... it was hard enough to work backwards from Verdurian, I don't want to take it another step.

As for reworking pages, it's probably not that big a deal. The names "Munkhâsh" and "Dhekhnam" aren't going to change; and other words that might have been Eynleyni (such as Ctelm, ktuvok) have turned out to be something else anyway.

zompist wrote:As I've gotten tired of the "languages of nasty people sound Germanic" meme...

But Dhekhnam is already a giant stereotype, anyway, why stop now? You embraced the "unredeemably evil empire" meme, quite successfully I must add. If you really want to rock the boat don't add pleasing euphony to the language, give the people a motivation other than the Lex-Lutherian obsession with harassing Verdurians. Maybe rewrite the history to fit in a few temporarily successful peasant uprisings, world-class poets, political reformers, investment capitalists, and for heaven's sake, where are the cities?

(Again, I love Almea, but I'm one of those tossers who nitpicks the things he likes)

brandrinn wrote:

zompist wrote:As I've gotten tired of the "languages of nasty people sound Germanic" meme...

But Dhekhnam is already a giant stereotype, anyway, why stop now? You embraced the "unredeemably evil empire" meme, quite successfully I must add. If you really want to rock the boat don't add pleasing euphony to the language, give the people a motivation other than the Lex-Lutherian obsession with harassing Verdurians. Maybe rewrite the history to fit in a few temporarily successful peasant uprisings, world-class poets, political reformers, investment capitalists, and for heaven's sake, where are the cities?

Wait a minute - did I miss something? Since when have investment capitalists stopped being attributes of the evil empire?

Money is evil.

So where does "Ctelm" come from? It doesn't look anyway related to Cad'inor Caeťmene.

I think the "secret connection" is exemplified by Wede:i we: and Beic bé - both meaning "mighty". Both languages have similar syllable structure.

Neither Dhekhnam nor the ktuvoks are eeeeevil in the standard pop culture mold. If you could find a ktuvok and discuss philosophy with him, I think he'd be quite surprised at the notion that he's evil. To ktuvoks, humans are an inferior species; he might point out that we don't consider ourselves evil because we make horses work for us.

Ctelm does come from Caeťmene, with help from a metathesis (i.e. Cťaemene). The L is a little surprising... it may originate from dissimulation of the two nasals, or perhaps it's a northern Cadhinorian retention of the -au- (and hypercorrection to -al-) from Methaiun. Or it might just be an interference from cťelt.

Hmm, for a start I think "Eynleyni" sounds pretty.

brandrinn wrote:If you really want to rock the boat don't add pleasing euphony to the language, give the people a motivation other than the Lex-Lutherian obsession with harassing Verdurians. Maybe rewrite the history

Perhaps you should reread the history? Did you ever pay attention to the part where it's explained on several different pages that the main motivation is the pyramid scheme setup of ktuvok empires? How do you politically reform a chrem?

zompist wrote: So far it has a fairly complex verb system, which relies extensively on infixing and consonant change. The primary inflection is rank, rather than number and person.

Because enough is never enough . . .

what about tense and/or aspect? Any other odd inflexional categories?

And how set is the phonology?

zompist wrote:Yes, Qarau and Eynleyni are related. Anything higher-level should be considered Greenbergian.

With one exception, left as a lagniappe for the truly crazy Almeologists. It doesn't involve Eastern though... it was hard enough to work backwards from Verdurian, I don't want to take it another step. :)

Wede:i? :O

zompist wrote:I've worked a fair amount on Dhekhnami, which promises to be fairly weird. But it's not anywhere near ready for viewing.

As I've gotten tired of the "languages of nasty people sound Germanic" meme, Dhekhnami is being revamped to sound pleasant.

Sorry to get onto a Tolkien comparison, but I've noticed that Dhekhnami seems to remind me of Sindarin lately. Although, "Munkhâsh" sounds more Black Speech-like (okay, Tolkien would have probably written it "Mûnkhash", since he used circumflexes for long vowels).

I personally think that Munkhâshi could sound harsh and Dhekhnami quite soft. I mean, bringing up Germanic languages, German sounds harsh, but Old and Middle English seemed to be quite a bit more mellifluous. Similarly, the Romance languages diverge quite a bit too (Castilian Spanish vs. Portuguese, anyone?)

So Haleza Grise wrote:

zompist wrote: So far it has a fairly complex verb system, which relies extensively on infixing and consonant change. The primary inflection is rank, rather than number and person.

Because enough is never enough . . .

what about tense and/or aspect? Any other odd inflexional categories?

And how set is the phonology?

English does not inflect for number and person either, except in a few bare-bones cases (like the 3S present/aorist -s) and in the verb "to be". But having a language with no tense (like Kebreni or Chinese) is a little confusing.

I wonder if Dhekhnami will be like Japanese, with rank inflections combined with tense and/or aspect...

brandrinn wrote:If you really want to rock the boat don't add pleasing euphony to the language, give the people a motivation other than the Lex-Lutherian obsession with harassing Verdurians.

Nothing easier. I've been thinking about Dhekhnam too and I've realised that from the point of view of a ktuvok (who is the biggest snob you can imagine) it's a good thing to have wealthy and powerful vassals in your chrem. A rich ktuvok is a rival, but a rich human loyal to you is an asset. His wealth is technically yours, while remaining his at the same time (there is a net increase in virtual wealth). What's more he boosts your reputation and may well get you a mate. You will boast of him to females ("Oh by the way, did I tell you my Philoplutos owns a house in the most fashionable district of Demoshimor, forty acres of game preserve and a five-mile stretch of river?") So a ktuvok does not suppress his most powerful servants, he positively showers them with favour. They will not rebel against him. They couldn't possibly be better off without him.

(He probably does have to worry about them being poached by his rivals. However he can take steps to prevent that.)

Consequently Gelalhat is the only religion which has no qualms whatever about wealth. The end justifies the means and the end is to become filthy rich.

This is also why the educated, cosmopolitan and resourceful Demoshi became favoured over the backward Tyellakh although the Tyellakh joined Dhekhnam first.

To be sure it is very bad luck if you happen to be born outside the upper classes. You are in danger of being cruelly exploited and oppressed by (human) superiors who have no mitigating scruples, and who do secretly fear you will rebel.

Mornche, your point is spot on about ktuvoks considering that their humans' wealth is non-threatening, since they consider it theirs.

Mornche Geddick wrote:To be sure it is very bad luck if you happen to be born outside the upper classes. You are in danger of being cruelly exploited and oppressed by (human) superiors who have no mitigating scruples, and who do secretly fear you will rebel.

Maybe there are some mitigating scruples as a societal defense mechanism -- basic principles of non-abuse, and perhaps a sense of ethnic solidarity among Demoshi (with other ethnic groups sort of getting the shaft, of course).

boy #12 wrote:

Mornche Geddick wrote:To be sure it is very bad luck if you happen to be born outside the upper classes. You are in danger of being cruelly exploited and oppressed by (human) superiors who have no mitigating scruples, and who do secretly fear you will rebel.

Maybe there are some mitigating scruples as a societal defense mechanism -- basic principles of non-abuse, and perhaps a sense of ethnic solidarity among Demoshi (with other ethnic groups sort of getting the shaft, of course).

I'd assume that under the superimposed Ktuvok pyramid scheme, there are the usual structures of pre-modern societies - clans, guilds, patron-client relationships, etc., and the usual obligations that go with them. Perhaps these obligations are even included into Gelalhát, just subordinated to the worship of Gelalh and obeisance to the Ktuvoks.

Now that people have started talking about Gelalhat- it's mentioned several times that they send priests to areas out of Dekhnam that Dekhnam wants to influence. But what do they preach there? The main central tenet of Gelalhat is, apparently, obedience to the ktuvok rulers- what shape does that take in areas that aren't actually ruled by ktuvoks?

Raphael wrote:The main central tenet of Gelalhat is, apparently, obedience to the ktuvok rulers- what shape does that take in areas that aren't actually ruled by ktuvoks?

Do you think this is a problem for a religion?

How may Catholics have actually seen the pope? (Not that I am comparing pope to a demon )

The Inevitable:

Well, most people probably saw him on TV somehow.

Easier would have been Chirst himself : who saw him?

Probably most Gelalh-worshipers obey their local priests who tell them what the will of the ktuvoks is.

Another possibility, given that ktuvoks are demons, is that their will can be directly transmitted into the cultists' minds. It may be described as a sort of demonic possession.