zompist bboard

In the historical atlas I found loads of governments fascinating, specifically that of Saisi. Where did you get those ideas from?

That particular one is invented, but it fits in with the uneasy transition from egalitarian hunter/gatherer bands, to Big Man redistribution systems, to full states. Some good introductions to these subjects are Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel and Marvin Harris's Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches.

My dad's reading those books! What a pleasant coincident .

I really liked Guns, Germs, & Steel, it certainly helped make sense of a lot of things. I thought Diamond's writing was a little prosaic, but the content outweighed that trivial complaint.

Come to think of it, my dad would probably really like the book.

It's certainly forced me to reconsider my conworld, which is getting a complete renovation anyway.

I?ve read Guns, germs, and steel, and it was interesting, though a little depressing in that it said the Americas had the bad luck of the draw. Nor would it have ever been likely that Aborigines hopping on war kangaroos would have ever taken over the world.

Shm Jay wrote:Nor would it have ever been likely that Aborigines hopping on war kangaroos would have ever taken over the world.

Well, they still could in the future.

I can see it now: Shriftom Jay and the Great Greys of Wullubullungmurrul vs. the Barefoot Brigade!

Delthayre wrote:I thought Diamond's writing was a little prosaic, but the content outweighed that trivial complaint.

Prosaic! How can you call anyone's writing prosaic when they are the writer of the phrase "Rhino-mounted Bantu shock troops"? That phrase will live with me forever.

Someday I'll write up the sakorin's sedmyar cavalry, inspired by that line.

"Rhino-mounted Bantu shock troops"

That's in Guns Germs and Steel!?

What page?

con quesa wrote:

"Rhino-mounted Bantu shock troops"

That's in Guns Germs and Steel!?

What page?

Can't remember exactly, and I'm not at home to check, but it's in the chapter on what kinds of animals are domesticable.

The larger context is something along the lines of:
"If African rhinos and hippos, had they been domesticable would not only have fed armies, they could have provided an unstoppable cavalry to carve through the ranks of European horsemen. Rhino-mounted Bantu shock troops could have overthrown the Roman Empire. Alas, it never happened."

Something like that, anyway.

Aidan wrote:

Delthayre wrote:I thought Diamond's writing was a little prosaic, but the content outweighed that trivial complaint.

Prosaic! How can you call anyone's writing prosaic when they are the writer of the phrase "Rhino-mounted Bantu shock troops"? That phrase will live with me forever.

Someday I'll write up the sakorin's sedmyar cavalry, inspired by that line.

Okay. But they have to overthrow an empire.

Page 399 (at least in my edition) is where it appears, in the chapter "How Africa Became Black"

"Had Africa's rhinos and hippos been domesticated and ridden, they would not only have fed armies but also have provided an unstoppable cavalry to cut through the ranks of European horsemen. Rhino-mounted Bantu shock troops could have overthrown the Roman Empire. It never happened".

I'm not an enormous fan of Diamond's writing style either; there's a difference between being accessible and being folksy. Not that I'd consider that a reason not to read the book.

So Haleza Grise wrote:

Aidan wrote:

Delthayre wrote:I thought Diamond's writing was a little prosaic, but the content outweighed that trivial complaint.

Prosaic! How can you call anyone's writing prosaic when they are the writer of the phrase "Rhino-mounted Bantu shock troops"? That phrase will live with me forever.

Someday I'll write up the sakorin's sedmyar cavalry, inspired by that line.

Okay. But they have to overthrow an empire.

I don't know much sakorin history yet; I'll see what I can do
I expect they've probably overthrown an empire or two.

Aidan wrote:The larger context is something along the lines of:
"If African rhinos and hippos, had they been domesticable would not only have fed armies, they could have provided an unstoppable cavalry to carve through the ranks of European horsemen. Rhino-mounted Bantu shock troops could have overthrown the Roman Empire. Alas, it never happened."

Something like that, anyway.

So Haleza Grise wrote:"Had Africa's rhinos and hippos been domesticated and ridden, they would not only have fed armies but also have provided an unstoppable cavalry to cut through the ranks of European horsemen. Rhino-mounted Bantu shock troops could have overthrown the Roman Empire. It never happened"..

Pretty good for a memory several years old, if I do say so myself

Why aren't rhinos domesticateable? Or if they are, why didn't rhino-mounted bantu shock troops overthrow the roman empire?

Though having said that, why exactly would have rhinos overthrown the Empire? After all, elephants tried and failed. Why would rhinos have been better?

Salmoneus wrote:Why aren't rhinos domesticateable? Or if they are, why didn't rhino-mounted bantu shock troops overthrow the roman empire?

Though having said that, why exactly would have rhinos overthrown the Empire? After all, elephants tried and failed. Why would rhinos have been better?

Elephants weren't really domesticable either, they were merely tameable. It's a valid question, though. I'm not sure I can answer it my satisfaction. All I can say at the moment is, since they are only tameable (not bred in captivity, not selected on), that made them more expensive to obtain and use than if they had been domesticable, and so, limited in their deployability.

As to why rhinos weren't domesticable, to grab from the other thread we're discussing GG&S right now:

Glenn wrote:Diamond's explanation is as you suggest--the native animal species of the Americas, as a rule, were not suitable for domestication, being too difficult to tame, too hard to breed in capitivity, lacking an appropriate social structure (species with a hierarchical herd structure and overlapping territories are easiest to tame), and so forth; he covers the bases better than I can here, and I found his arguments convincing. The same applies to many other animal species around the world (helping explain why so few African herbivores were domesticated, for instance).

Rhinos fail almost every criteria. They don't have a very social tight socail structure, they're highly territorial, they grow slowly, and they're nasty buggers.

zompist wrote:I can see it now: Shriftom Jay and the Great Greys of Wullubullungmurrul vs. the Barefoot Brigade!

Yes, it?s a crusade, or rather a shoe-sade, to get the pakeha to wear shoes (or whatever is the Australian equivalent of the word ?pakeha?.)

Intresting concept, Kangaroos fighting Rhinos, Sydney would probably speak Xhosa