zompist bboard

It's clear there's quite an Eretald rivalry between Verduria and Kebri, given their history of wars and the colonial competition. But who's ahead? Verduria's got its colony in Téllinor, Karímia, and a decent relationship with Uytai. Kebri however has Moreo Ashcai, Lascita, the Little Kingdoms and apparently a large portion of Pahsau. If Kebri controls the trade routes through Pahsau, it likely holds a lot of territory.

This begs the question: which is more 'powerful', Kebri or Verduria? or, barring such a direct comparison, what Terran historical powers do they most resemble?

Verduria, easily. More people in Eretald by far, more innovative in terms of technology, a bigger army, more culturally dominant, more industrialization. Kebri just happens to be more maritime oriented so they have more colonies.

Verduria is sort of like France, and Kebri is sort of like the Netherlands, I think.

Well I'm talking all around; clearly if Kebri has taken enough colonies, and (if) they would conscript soldiers from them, they might be able to feasibly match Verduria.

Basically I'm looking for confirmation of that possibility, and hopefully further description of the situation.

Atom wrote:Verduria, easily. More people in Eretald by far, more innovative in terms of technology, a bigger army, more culturally dominant, more industrialization.

Hello, France in the eighteenth century. Meet your auld enemy. Don't worry, you're FAR superior to them...

Verduria is sort of like France, and Kebri is sort of like the Netherlands, I think.

This overlooks the obvious parallel, I think - which iirc is the one Zomp himself has drawn.

Salmoneus wrote:

Atom wrote: Verduria is sort of like France, and Kebri is sort of like the Netherlands, I think.

This overlooks the obvious parallel, I think - which iirc is the one Zomp himself has drawn.

Fraance and Britain? I just think Kebri is too small to be like Britain... Maybe just England, but I still don't know. Kebri feels really different from Verduria, more so then the two sides of the channel.

Also, France in the 18th century also really reminds of Verduria.

Atom wrote:Also, France in the 18th century also really reminds of Verduria.

Well, except for the whole Eschambra business, which looks much more British than French. In the end, Almea is not a game of "putting Earth cultures into costumes"; while there are parallels and influences, it's not an allegory for Earth.

K, but which one is more powerful?

Verduria does seem to have the upper hand. What matters is what you have at home, not how many third world colonies you have. Who would win in a fight, Bismark's Germany, or contemporary Portugal? Colonies are useful for encouraging industrialization at home, by providing raw materials, markets for finished goods, and sometimes even exporters of capital. But if your colonies aren't doing that for you, they might as well be worthless. And it might not be you the colonies are benefiting. The US and Germany benefited as much as England from the centuries Britain spent siphoning off India's wealth, and England got more out of Spain's New World colonies than Spain itself.

So if Verduria is more industrially developed, Kebri's colonies aren't likely to stack up to much. We saw that in the final Verduria-Kebri war, didn't we? Once Verduria put its resources behind maritime weaponry, it gained the upper hand, even though Kebri had a huge headstart in maritime technology, because Verduria's resources were greater.

brandrinn wrote: So if Verduria is more industrially developed, Kebri's colonies aren't likely to stack up to much. We saw that in the final Verduria-Kebri war, didn't we? Once Verduria put its resources behind maritime weaponry, it gained the upper hand, even though Kebri had a huge headstart in maritime technology, because Verduria's resources were greater.

I agree. Luckily for the Kebrenis, Verduria doesn't seem too interested in conquest in its neighbourhood, except if there's an opportunity too good to miss; otherwise, they'd be busy annexing all the statelets to the South. And then, there's the danger that Dhekhnam might interfere into any new Verdurian-Kebreni war.

You are all forgetting Kebri's huge advantage : insularity. Being on an island means strong navy to invade. They may be smaller than Verduria, they nonetheless have a well protected realm.

It's not France vs. anything continental in Europe. It's France vs. GB, and we all know who got the last laugh. (I live under the result of this opposition.)

No Yiuel, its not like Great Britain at all. Kebri is much much smaller then Great Britain at a comparable time, not just in terms of land, but also in terms of population. Look, according to the Almeopedia Kebri has just 1.8 million people, Verduria has 6.5 million, and Great Britain had (from a quick Google search) had 6 million people. As I said before the Netherlands is closer, with 1.5 million in population. Even though kebri has a Relative Prosperity score of 102, 2 higher then Verduria's, it doesn't matter that much. Any competition between Verduria and Kebri is ratrher one sided. Yes Kebri is mountainous and difficult to control, but even in the best war, Kebri might hope to maybe occupy Verduria (the city) and th elittoral for a few months before being kicked back out.

Atom wrote:No Yiuel, its not like Great Britain at all. Kebri is much much smaller then Great Britain at a comparable time, not just in terms of land, but also in terms of population. Look, according to the Almeopedia Kebri has just 1.8 million people, Verduria has 6.5 million, and Great Britain had (from a quick Google search) had 6 million people. As I said before the Netherlands is closer, with 1.5 million in population. Even though kebri has a Relative Prosperity score of 102, 2 higher then Verduria's, it doesn't matter that much. Any competition between Verduria and Kebri is ratrher one sided. Yes Kebri is mountainous and difficult to control, but even in the best war, Kebri might hope to maybe occupy Verduria (the city) and th elittoral for a few months before being kicked back out.

And Britain ever had any hope of occupying France during our comparable period of history?

Atom wrote:No Yiuel, its not like Great Britain at all. Kebri is much much smaller then Great Britain at a comparable time, not just in terms of land, but also in terms of population. Look, according to the Almeopedia Kebri has just 1.8 million people, Verduria has 6.5 million, and Great Britain had (from a quick Google search) had 6 million people. As I said before the Netherlands is closer, with 1.5 million in population. Even though kebri has a Relative Prosperity score of 102, 2 higher then Verduria's, it doesn't matter that much. Any competition between Verduria and Kebri is ratrher one sided. Yes Kebri is mountainous and difficult to control, but even in the best war, Kebri might hope to maybe occupy Verduria (the city) and th elittoral for a few months before being kicked back out.

I will have to go with Dewrad here. What about France at the same time? Erelaean countries seems smaller than European ones (it would be easier to get a feeling if we had landsizes for Erelaean countries.) France is bigger than Britain, by all accounts. And Verduria also has its Germany : Ctesiphon, which will attempt to bully its own kingdom.

Kebri has the problem of being mountainous, so that limits its population somehow. But Kebri is at the latitude of Japan, and Japan hosts Tokyo, and they had Edo, a true urban culture, and now they boast the biggest city in the world, on a mountainous island. I don't think there is any limitation in what Kebri could do, actually. It won't kill Verduria, but it might check it fair and square overseas.

France in 1600 had (again from a cursory Google search) 20 million people in 1600. You definately have a point there. However I still any conflict with Kebri v. Verduria is definitely waited towards Verduria, especially once we consider how Kebri is not exactly popular in Eralea. I mean I imagine Erenat is definately on Verduria's side.

Failing to see how Ctesiphon is like Germany, In genreal I think of Eralea as sort of like Germany, an ethnically similar group of peoples that are heavily divided, however Verduria seems more dominant then Austria or Prussia was at any point pre-Napoleon.

Atom wrote:France in 1600 had (again from a cursory Google search) 20 million people in 1600. You definately have a point there. However I still any conflict with Kebri v. Verduria is definitely waited towards Verduria, especially once we consider how Kebri is not exactly popular in Eralea. I mean I imagine Erenat is definately on Verduria's side.

Britain wasn't exactly a popular state in Europe either. All the large countries had a war with it at some point in time. Yet small Britain survived well, and actually better than most.

(Remember Kebri was the first to recover from the Middle Ages going into the modern era.)

However, being powerful overseas doesn't mean being large enough to conquer a large rival country. France has not been occupied by Britain since they left Calais centuries ago. (Germany did though). Heck, they needed the strongest pan-european coalition to kick off the Emperor. Being powerful overseas doesn't mean being a huge power back at home, though Kebri seems to be strong enough to piss off everyone and be the opposition to Verduria in the littoral.

Failing to see how Ctesiphon is like Germany, In genreal I think of Eralea as sort of like Germany, an ethnically similar group of peoples that are heavily divided, however Verduria seems more dominant then Austria or Prussia was at any point pre-Napoleon.

"Eloro" instead of "Dalu", statelets that are just waiting to be united, even its strong conservatism. And look south with the Svetla Confederation, something to piss off her royalty. Ctesiphon is just waiting to become a big opposition to Verduria somehow.

Yiuel wrote:Kebri has the problem of being mountainous,

wait for it...

so that limits its population somehow.

wait for it...

But Kebri is at the latitude of Japan

BINGO!

Kevin Bacon is spinning in his (future) grave.

brandrinn wrote:

Yiuel wrote:Kebri has the problem of being mountainous,

wait for it...

so that limits its population somehow.

wait for it...

But Kebri is at the latitude of Japan

BINGO!

Kevin Bacon is spinning in his (future) grave.

Not to mention the fact that both Kebri and Japan have languages that inflect for politeness, emphasize aspect rather than tense, and have -te forms.

bulbaquil wrote:Not to mention the fact that both Kebri and Japan have languages that inflect for politeness, emphasize aspect rather than tense, and have -te forms.

Japanese does not emphasize aspect anymore (or, more accurately, while the current past form diachronically derives from aspects, it no longer has that feature much). In the past, Japanese was a lot weirder.

I did felt the connection about the te-form, but it is different in a few ways. I should probably do some comparative analysis between both languages.

Yiuel wrote:

bulbaquil wrote:Not to mention the fact that both Kebri and Japan have languages that inflect for politeness, emphasize aspect rather than tense, and have -te forms.

Japanese does not emphasize aspect anymore (or, more accurately, while the current past form diachronically derives from aspects, it no longer has that feature much). In the past, Japanese was a lot weirder.

I did felt the connection about the te-form, but it is different in a few ways. I should probably do some comparative analysis between both languages.

I always assumed the -te form in Kebri was a deliberate borrowing from Japanese.

brandrinn wrote:

Yiuel wrote:Kebri has the problem of being mountainous,

wait for it...

so that limits its population somehow.

wait for it...

But Kebri is at the latitude of Japan

BINGO!

Kevin Bacon is spinning in his (future) grave.

I looked up who kevin Bacon his but still can't understand how it's remotely relevant. Can anyone please explain to me?

jmcd wrote:

brandrinn wrote:

Yiuel wrote:Kebri has the problem of being mountainous,

wait for it...

so that limits its population somehow.

wait for it...

But Kebri is at the latitude of Japan

BINGO!

Kevin Bacon is spinning in his (future) grave.

I looked up who kevin Bacon his but still can't understand how it's remotely relevant. Can anyone please explain to me?

There's a 'game' where you take a random celebrity (or anyone for that matter), and through association with acquaintances link them with Kevin Bacon within 6 'degrees'. Usually through people who starred in movies or TV shows.

Japan really is the Kevin Bacon of historical discussions, isn't it. I hadn't noticed that before.

ils wrote:Japan really is the Kevin Bacon of historical discussions, isn't it. I hadn't noticed that before.

I'd say it's more like Wilford Brimley: people go out of their way to use it as an example if it is even the tiniest bit relevant.

brandrinn wrote:

Yiuel wrote:

bulbaquil wrote:Not to mention the fact that both Kebri and Japan have languages that inflect for politeness, emphasize aspect rather than tense, and have -te forms.

Japanese does not emphasize aspect anymore (or, more accurately, while the current past form diachronically derives from aspects, it no longer has that feature much). In the past, Japanese was a lot weirder.

I did felt the connection about the te-form, but it is different in a few ways. I should probably do some comparative analysis between both languages.

I always assumed the -te form in Kebri was a deliberate borrowing from Japanese.

And I assumed it was a borrowing off Mandarin de.

brandrinn wrote:

ils wrote:Japan really is the Kevin Bacon of historical discussions, isn't it. I hadn't noticed that before.

I'd say it's more like Wilford Brimley: people go out of their way to use it as an example if it is even the tiniest bit relevant.

Shotgun Blast To Abdomen Just Pisses
Wilford Brimley Off More


relevant.

Back on topic, there are lots of reasons why Kebri is nothing like early modern Japan. But that's probably a bit of a red herring anyway. The real issue is: what makes countries powerful, and how do Verduria and Kebri stack up in these areas?

We can assume that per capita wealth and production capacity are pretty similar in each country. As noted, Kebri has a large trading empire with several colonies, perhaps as large or larger than Verduria's. But as I mentioned before, colonies are a means to an end. If Kebri uses those colonies to advance its own productive capacity without bleeding capital to Verduria, it can gain an advantage, but we can plainly see that Kebri has not achieved a significantly greater level of industrial capacity (yet, perhaps?). In fact, in terms of future capacity for industry and innovation, Verduria seems to have the advantage, with greater capital to invest and a larger urban workforce. Kebri has lost naval dominance, its last trump card. Mark it eight.

So what's the future, then? Will the rivalry between Verduria eventually conquer or at least economically dominate Kebri (like England vs the rest of the British Isles)? Will the antagonistic feuding slowly simmer down to a friendly rivalry, perhaps even marked by periods of cooperation (like France and England)? Will Kebri gradually slip into economic oblivion, a backwater island useful only for viticulture (like the countless once-vital Mediterranean islands)?