Uyse Grammar up!

Atom · Post by **Atom** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:19 am

It should be Uyseʔ but the board has issues with this.

Well, it's finally here. Looks fairly good, just got my way through the grammar, looking at writing right now, will report back later on more substantive issues.

Ther is one thing that's really bothering me: Sometimes I see that the the heading formatting isn't ended, so the normal text comes out big and blue. That happens at pronouns, compounds, passive by omission, causatives, comparatives, and the last three sample texts.

WeepingElf · Post by **WeepingElf** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:50 am

First impression: rock'n'roll, both the language and the script! Looks very plausible and naturalistic.

Dewrad · Post by **Dewrad** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:00 am

Awesome.

It looks like there are a number of instances where <h3> tags have been closed with </h2> tags, which messes up the formatting.

Solarius · Post by **Solarius** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:03 pm

Whimemsz · Post by **Whimemsz** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:03 pm

Looks pretty awesome! I really like that so many of your recent languages have focused on aspects of linguistics that many conlangers are less familiar with (generative transformations in Axunashin, semiotics in Xurnese, etc.), and now we have an isolating language! I also have to say that I love the phonological feel of the language--it's got all the bits of Old Tibetan or Khmer that I like, but without the gross parts. I haven't gotten all the way through the grammar yet, but I do have two quick observations:

(1) I don't know if anyone's pointed it out before, and I have no idea if this was intentional, but I like the fact that "new town" is Khartsiʔ (and is the capital of one of two opposing empires).

(2) In the "peasant drinks beer" series of examples, the word for "pell beer" is several times given erroneously as sluyʔ instead of sluʔ

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EDIT: A few more things:

(3) In the example pyey na nyanram ħwim tswun phut, correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't a better gloss for tswun be "kill", rather than "die"?

(4) In the example fretuy ħrew ar nawal sru tai khuy hwehew, the order in the gloss doesn't match the actual order of Uyseʔ words ("then" [=nawal] is glossed as coming after the topic particle sru)

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EDIT2:

(5) In the example nwunram ken thakahnram ken ħrinram poy swaum ħret thu ke, is the final ke (glossed "be") a typo for he? I don't see it mentioned anywhere else.

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EDIT3:

(6) There's several mixing-ups of English and Uyseʔ in the Nyekhen quote:

Pwer har thoy hwai phrew ħwim than kwon wau nye nren phepe than.
both man his woman save want fight however wau of nren intense than

("wau" and "nren", and I'm not sure if "than" is a mistake in the Uyseʔ or in the gloss?)

Yiuel Raumbesrairc · Post by **Yiuel Raumbesrairc** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:30 pm

Looks awesome. A shame I'll be away tonight. But it won't disappear, so I'll read it later.

eodrakken · Post by **eodrakken** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 1:31 pm

Very well done. Now I'm inspired to go work on the syntax of my current project.

Post by **zompist** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 3:39 pm

Thanks for the corrections— the corrected text is up.

Firefox is way too tolerant of HTML errors! The headers looked fine in Firefox so I didn't look at them closely.

So Haleza Grise · Post by **So Haleza Grise** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:06 pm

Wow! Early thoughts (phonology and writing system) - very clearly influenced by Mandarin. This actually makes me feel relieved; I'm often worried that my conlang phonologies are too derivative from one source.

dhok · Post by **dhok** » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:28 pm

I have but one thing to say:
Sompit a, pyey syai ħwen ħwen.
(Is that right?)
EDIT: Forgot the vocative particle. (And I made Zompist fit with the phonotactics...his name is now Sompit.)

So Haleza Grise · Post by **So Haleza Grise** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:12 am

Another typo: in the "Aspectual particles" section, Khwar Phettai thu lyol lacks a verb.

Cedh · Post by **Cedh** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:54 am

Tse seʔ faumne tsyir he. Pyey kwar keʔ tsar siw un.

tezcatlip0ca · Post by **tezcatlip0ca** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:25 am

I will actually keep waiting for Ubingkayi?.

Mornche Geddick · Post by **Mornche Geddick** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:13 am

My first attempt at uyse? text.

Wor Yonram yuse?,
lord Bigwig say-PERF
Sleso a, poy kyow Wor Prauram pyey nrar
Sleso VOC my friend lord Splendour I AND
hren kwar tsratram huy fromram.
doubt you rascal OR fool
Sleso wey fwai Yonram Prauram nrar thwe?,
Sleso arm use Bigwig Splendour AND take,
yurul tulwor a, pyey hroy swai nrar huy.
reply-PERF lord-PL VOC, I believe that both among.

Lord Bigwig said "Sleso! My friend Lord Splendour and I were wondering if you were a rascal or a fool."
Taking each of them by the arm, Sleso answered "My Lords, I believe I am between both."

dunomapuka · Post by **dunomapuka** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:53 pm

I'm interested in the relationship between the ko bean and its Uyseʔ form ħo, likewise the gram squash and ħram.

Post by **zompist** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:04 pm

I like that, Mornche! Some corrections and comments--

Wor Yonram yuseʔ,
lord Bigwig PAST-say
Sleʔso a, poy kyow ar Wor Prauram pyey nrar
Sleso VOC my friend SUB lord Splendour I pair
hren kwar tsratram huy fromram he.
doubt you rascal OR fool be
Sleʔso wey fwai Yonram Prauram nrar thwe?,
Sleso arm use Bigwig Splendour AND grip,
tur yuseʔ, tulwor a, pyey hroy nrar huy he.
back PAST-say lord-PL VOC, I believe both among be.

1. 'Sleso' is Nyanese; the Uyseʔ is Sleʔso.
2. I only briefly mentioned this in the grammar, but one avoids concatenating NPs. So I subordinated "my friend".
3. "wor Prauram pyey nrar" implies that the two are a natural couple of some sort. That is, it's much stronger than "and". It's not wrong, though.
4. Added "be" to make the sentential object of "doubt" explicit.
5. rul takes only a dative; when the thing said is given instead, use seʔ, but "tur" can still be used to add the sense "said back".
6. Swai indicates indirect speech so it's not needed the last line. I also added "be" here.
7. The ambiguity of the last line is very nicely preserved in the Uyseʔ.

tezcatlip0ca · Post by **tezcatlip0ca** » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:52 pm

How do you type the glottal stop symbol? I write Uyse? or Uyse', never Uyse7. To me seven means [7] not [?]

Post by **zompist** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:09 am

Cut and paste is your friend.

As for ko and gram, they're just anglicizations. If I'm writing a story or something, it's useful not to have to worry about ħ. All the major food crops of Almea have anglicized or calqued names.

Mornche Geddick · Post by **Mornche Geddick** » Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:39 am

Thanks for the corrections. I was wondering if I should use "he" or omit it in that sentence.

I thought that "nrar" would be used for brothers and be extended to close friends, ("Boswell Johnson nrar") and partnerships ("Gilbert Sullivan nrar", "Crick Watson nrar"). Does that sound right?

rotting bones · Post by **rotting bones** » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:31 pm

Uyseʔ is among the nicest and most realistic Almean languages to date IMO, along with Verdurian, it's close relatives, and Kebreni. If only it had a recording or two on the Sounds of Almea page. I also kinda wish Nyekhen was more like my favorite Chinese culture hero, Ximen Bao, the legendary hydraulics engineer who taught men how to tame the rivers without human sacrifice.

Post by **zompist** » Sat Apr 03, 2010 4:16 pm

Thanks... yes, I need to get sound samples up. My PC hard drive died this week, so I lost a bunch of stuff including the sound recording program. I have to remember which one it was and reinstall it...

Mapar · Post by **Mapar** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:44 am

As for ko and gram, they're just anglicizations. If I'm writing a story or something, it's useful not to have to worry about ħ. All the major food crops of Almea have anglicized or calqued names.

GNOME has handy keystrokes for most of the strange characters.

e.g. ħ is alt+H

Ran · Post by **Ran** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:49 pm

this is really cool!

a lot of things are reminiscent of Sinitic, and the whole language is really well executed, especially the poem at the end, that was totally awesome!

(and the script is gorgeous!!)

your plans permitting, i would love to see more poetry as well as more stuff on the regional languages!

EDIT:
i just realized something... shouldn't the phonetic elements of the glyphs be based on ancient and not modern pronunciation?

Yiuel Raumbesrairc · Post by **Yiuel Raumbesrairc** » Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:18 pm

Ran wrote:EDIT:
i just realized something... shouldn't the phonetic elements of the glyphs be based on ancient and not modern pronunciation?

If sound changes are rather straightforward, modern pronounciation usually will not get in the way of the phonetic elements. Japanese on readings (derived from middle Chinese) are still similar (though not identical) to each other when dealing with similar phonetical elements.

Ran · Post by **Ran** » Mon Apr 05, 2010 5:55 am

Well, the system is basically intact in Japanese and Chinese, but there's also a lot of places where the system has been shifted around significantly, especially due to Old Chinese > Middle Chinese sound changes, e.g. 各 gè / kaku; 絡 luò / raku; 路 lù / ro