A Munkhashi Life

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Owain
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A Munkhashi Life

Post by Owain »

Just read, very interesting and gives a good insight into the Demoshi.

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So Haleza Grise
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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by So Haleza Grise »

Poor Shikhar! It seems to me to be a slave's life: the only relief from misery comes from when you're old enough to have survived the worst of it :(.

It's funny how in parts it seemed to echo life behind the iron curtain.
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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by con quesa »

So Haleza Grise wrote:Poor Shikhar! It seems to me to be a slave's life: the only relief from misery comes from when you're old enough to have survived the worst of it :(.

It's funny how in parts it seemed to echo life behind the iron curtain.

That doesn't seem at all like a bad analogy, actually. Without excusing totalitarianism, life behind the iron curtain wasn't all bad all the time for everyone, and a lot of the ordinary folks of eastern European countries got by more or less okay according to their cultural expectations. And the same seems to apply to the Demoshi (of course the Cadhinorians wouldn't feel that way - but then, neither did most Americans about the Soviets in the 50s). Frankly the description here didn't seem all that much worse than that of the Bele peasant in the Arcel atlas. And certainly making a culture broadly akin to a totalitarian bureaucracy only with more respect for human life and ultimately run by 9 foot tall demons is a pretty unique take on the normal fantasy trope.

Zomp's mentioned before that the Ktuvoks have a power of persuasion strong enough that it looks like demonic possession at close range, but there wasn't really any evidence of that in this sketch. What does it seem like to the average Demoshi when a ktuvok uses that power?
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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by Atom »

Now I really want to know what it's like to grow up a Demoshi woman, just enough information to interest me. Is it basically the same? I can't imagine that woman would engage in the same kind of fisticuffs as the men do. Also, how exact is the hierarchy in the village? Like, does everybody know their exact standing with the others in their kukla (hope I spelled that right) or is it more general, like "I'm higher then him, and a bit lower then that guy, but that one I only know is higher me" sort of thing.

Also, how would the typical Cadhinorian life of the time compare?

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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by zompist »

Atom wrote:Now I really want to know what it's like to grow up a Demoshi woman, just enough information to interest me. Is it basically the same?
Quite similar— there are some hints in the section on Cheket.
* Females are inferior within a group, so it's arguably more miserable. On the other hand, Demoshi mores discourage stamping on far inferiors; the challenges and fights are almost always between those very close in the hierarchy.
* Wife sharing obviously looks very different to the women.
* Age trumps sex; you don't talk back to your mother, nor older women in general.
* Women are more likely to be married outside their village, which is rather traumatic and requires completely rebuilding their social structure. For that reason, and as basic protection, and for child-rearing purposes, they're more likely to do daily tasks together
* As noted, women without young children are used as archers (a practice the Cadhinorians considered unnatural)
I can't imagine that woman would engage in the same kind of fisticuffs as the men do.
They're more likely to go for verbal or social abuse; but they're quite ready to get physical.
Also, how exact is the hierarchy in the village? Like, does everybody know their exact standing with the others in their kukla (hope I spelled that right) or is it more general, like "I'm higher then him, and a bit lower then that guy, but that one I only know is higher me" sort of thing.
Within the kukla, the hierarchy is quite exact and well known. You may or may not know the exact order in other kuklas. (The village only had about 90 people; it's quite easy to know quite a lot about a group that size that you live and work with daily.)
Also, how would the typical Cadhinorian life of the time compare?
Depends widely on the time. You could start with the Verdurian culture test for the basics. Sometime I'll address this in more detail.

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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by rotting bones »

Múr led a richer and more fulfilling life than either Phwai or Shikhar IMHO. Hers was full of adventure, wonder and all those nuggets of creamy goodness that make life fun and enjoyable. Phwai spent his life working the fields, killing rats with rocks and growing old enough to be made an uy. (the less said about Shikhar, the better) On the downside, she barely had any privacy at home. This sometimes stifles the imagination and cramps initiative, but then, most uesti cultures seem more socially oriented than ours. If this is a trait of the species, perhaps she had less of a problem with it than a human being might.

BTW, I love the way human lust and violence became self-fulfilling prophecies in Munkhash.
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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by So Haleza Grise »

con quesa wrote: Frankly the description here didn't seem all that much worse than that of the Bele peasant in the Arcel atlas.
I disagree. Even games and songs are woven into an atmosphere of subjugation and forced labour for Shikhar. And the Bé don't have a horrific culture of institutionalised sex abuse. The atmosphere seems to be one with no purposeless joy: it reminds me of Orwell: "There will be no curiosity, no enjoyment of the process of life. All competing pleasures will be destroyed. But always -- do not forget this, Winston -- always there will be the intoxication of power, constantly increasing and constantly growing subtler. Always, at every moment, there will be the thrill of victory, the sensation of trampling on an enemy who is helpless."
rotting ham wrote: most uesti cultures seem more socially oriented than ours.
I don't know about that. Privacy as we know it is essentially a modern concept. Living communally as described in the peasant sketches is still the norm in much of the developing world, for example.

Also: So ktuvoki can speak human languages. I suppose given they can't communicate telepathically they'd have to. I wonder how easy they are for them to learn? I doubt ktuvoki languages would cover the same sort of social nuances, for one thing. And they live, I presume for several human lifetimes: does this make their speech archaic? They must be difficult to understand overall.
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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by rotting bones »

I was talking about urban life. (I guess I should explain myself, but I don't feel like it. Later, maybe.) (As for rural privacy, it's still a valid criterion for comparing different Almean cultures. Whatever.)
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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by Dewrad »

Something puzzles me: what was the status of cities in Munkhash? Were they independent, part of a single ktuvok's estate or what? Why did the ktuvoks allow them? Who lived there, and why?
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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by zompist »

The Munkhâshi were not a very urban people (this is true of some early terrestrial empires as well— Persia and Egypt for instance). Still, they needed cities for some things that the trêms weren't good for:

* administration of the command economy
* storehouses for the same
* building ships, catapults, and such higher technology
* luxury manufactures (for the elite and for trade)
* large-scale religious events
* defense, in frontier areas (near Cadhinas)

Cities were considered the property of a number of nearby trêms; but that meant that they were highly autonomous, and in effect taxed the estates for their own needs.

Also only hinted at in the sketch is metallurgy. Elcari didn't enter Munkhâsh, so it had to develop its own metallurgy, and its practitioners were a favored class.

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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by Owain »

It's very interesting - they're more or less said to be in constant civil war, with every ktuvok fighting at least one other, though wars seem more of a ritualized combat of champions. It makes you wonder how they can expand - they're supposed to have territories all over, so it can't just be an alliance of the ktuvoks in that area.
How many ktuvoks are there and how long do they live? I'm guessing around a 100,000 and the same lifespan as elcari, but I'm probably wrong.
Also, how different would modern Dhekhnam be to this?

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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by Dewrad »

zompist wrote:The Munkhâshi were not a very urban people (this is true of some early terrestrial empires as well— Persia and Egypt for instance). Still, they needed cities for some things that the trêms weren't good for:

* administration of the command economy
* storehouses for the same
* building ships, catapults, and such higher technology
* luxury manufactures (for the elite and for trade)
* large-scale religious events
* defense, in frontier areas (near Cadhinas)

Cities were considered the property of a number of nearby trêms; but that meant that they were highly autonomous, and in effect taxed the estates for their own needs.

Also only hinted at in the sketch is metallurgy. Elcari didn't enter Munkhâsh, so it had to develop its own metallurgy, and its practitioners were a favored class.
Interesting. How were the cities populated? As I recall, premodern cities could only really maintain their population by means of massive immigration from the countryside (due to the unsanitary conditions of urban life meaning the death-rate outstripped the birthrate.) Were peasants from nearby trêms "headhunted" if they showed promise or aptitude, or did people simply run away to them? Or was it a simply an extension of the command economy: when new people were needed they were simply shipped in from the country estates?

And how did the "joint ownership" thing work in practice? Were there trêm-specific barrios or quarters in the cities? If two trêms who had a common interest in a single city went to war, would the city split along trêm lines? Was there much mixing between humans of different trêms?
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)

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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by zompist »

Owain wrote:It's very interesting - they're more or less said to be in constant civil war, with every ktuvok fighting at least one other, though wars seem more of a ritualized combat of champions. It makes you wonder how they can expand - they're supposed to have territories all over, so it can't just be an alliance of the ktuvoks in that area.
How many ktuvoks are there and how long do they live? I'm guessing around a 100,000 and the same lifespan as elcari, but I'm probably wrong.
Also, how different would modern Dhekhnam be to this?
1. The wars aren't constant for any one trêm— the sketch is describing an entire lifetime, after all. There are factions of ktuvoks, and these drive the timetable for external expansion— though this is theoretically always a virtue, the conditions for it are not always there. Thus the empire tends to alternate between gulps of expansion and long stagnant periods.

2. There were up to 20,000 adult ktuvoks in Munkhâsh, and an equal number of estate-less young. I'm pretty sure lifespans are much shorter than iliu, but longer than human.

3. Dhekhnam is significantly different— it's a market economy and, for the Demoshi and Carhinnoi, a good deal more of a partnership.

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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by zompist »

BTW, the range of reactions here is nice... some people react with horror, some that it's not that bad. That's about what I was aiming for. I have much less patience with eeeevil societies and wanted to work out something with much more moral ambiguity.

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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by Yiuel Raumbesrairc »

Somehow, while I do feel appalled by the dominance the ktuvoks have over the whole society, it doesn't feel as bad as one would expect. Funnily, I would have to agree with the Sarnaean friends and my gut feeling would be that I would be better off with the ktuvoks than the nomads.
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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by zompist »

Dewrad wrote:And how did the "joint ownership" thing work in practice? Were there trêm-specific barrios or quarters in the cities? If two trêms who had a common interest in a single city went to war, would the city split along trêm lines? Was there much mixing between humans of different trêms?
You would still belong to a trêm (after all, we couldn't have children born in a city not belonging to a ktuvok; that would be indecorous if not treasonous). But settlement was mixed, and the cities were neutral in inter-ktuvok wars.

You would still live with and marry within your trêm; in a sense they functioned within a city like the kuklas did within a village.

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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by the duke of nuke »

This is really quite fascinating... it's not every day that we get to see a properly fleshed-out description of life in a fantasy "evil empire".
The resemblance to the old Eastern bloc and to the more extreme view in 1984 is noticeable (certainly in the inefficiency of goods distribution, and the general repression of enjoying things for their own sake). It doesn't seem like a nice place to live - but probably little worse than peasant life in Uytai, and I agree with Yiuel that it seems better than being conquered by the Gelyet.

One question, since everyone is on the topic of cities: how big were the urban areas in Munkhâsh? How did they compare to contemporary cities in other parts of Ereláe - those of Cadhinas or Axunai, for instance?
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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by zompist »

You can get some idea of city sizes from the 600 C map in the atlas.

FWIW an elite lifestyle was nicer in many ways; certainly there were more indulgences. On the other hand, the consequences of failing one's tasks were worse, and having more interaction with the ktuvoks was not exactly a selling point.

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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by So Haleza Grise »

Small typo: "sheld" instead of "shield" when describing their armour.
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Re: A Munkhashi Life

Post by Mornche Geddick »

My only niggle is the illustration - is that meant to be Shikhar at five years old? He looks more like a fully grown man on a very, very small scale. Children's body proportions are different to those of adults. Their heads are larger, for one thing.

As for Munkhash, I'm really, really glad I don't live there. Shikhar escaped the worst of it - an account from a Cadhinorean peasant in the conquered territories would have given a much darker picture.

I suspect that in the cities, (especially in present-day Sarnae and Monkhayu) the chrem system would be much weaker. It would be impossible to stop people mixing together. Laws could be enacted to persecute people who intermarry, these would fail in their purpose, but succeed in making people's lives that bit more miserable and in causing a lot of resentment.

For most people in Sarnae, the main result of the chrem system would be to determine which office you went to to pay your taxes. This would make fraud fairly easy for greedy tax officials. You could send a letter to a victim telling them that thanks to changes in the bureaucracy they were now part of your chrem and demand a tax from them that they had to pay, on a certain date, at your office. You would then pocket the money yourself. They would not be able to complain, because they would be your inferiors.

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