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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:15 pm 
Avisaru
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In another thread, dhokarena56 wrote:
OK, here's the evidence I have for relating OS and Kebreni. Admittedly I don't have time to do the comparative method right now, so this will smack of Uralo-Altaic rather than Indo-European; it's based on typological similarities.


What looks like by far the most likely connection to me is Wede:i / Skourene. Let's start with the first five numerals:

Code:
   OS:         Wd:

1   moţ         bo
2   ḍog         yok
3   ded         śir
4   darţ        tause
5   bim         pina


Aside from "three", which may be non-cognate, these are very suggestively similar. Let's move on to the pronominal affixes now (and note that both Skourene and Wede:i lack real full personal pronouns--the Skourene ones are transparently derived from verbs+pronominal morphology). Removing the suffixes that evidently indicate gender in Skourene (and ignoring the 3rd person forms, which don't look cognate), we're left with:

Code:
      OS:            Wd (object):

1sg   -ŋ(o)-         -no
1pl   -dor-          -tu
2sg   -g(o)-         -ku
2pl   -beş-          -we


Just in comparing these two sets of possible cognates, from very stable parts of the vocabulary, we can begin to see a few possible sound correspondences, although obviously nothing conclusive yet without examining a lot more. But, for instance, we have OS g : Wd k in "two" and the 2sg affix; and we have OS d : Wd t in "four" and the 1pl affix.

Now I'm going to try using the Swadesh list on these puppies.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:07 pm 
Avisaru
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Interesting, and plausible! But the morphology is going to be hell to reconstruct.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:54 pm 
Avisaru
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Yeahhhhh...I might leave that part for someone else!

Anyway, Swadesh list is done, but it lacks some terms that I should check and see if they're cognate too (like directions and more colors and stuff). A question mark means I can't find a native term with that definition in the lexicon; a double-dash indicates that the meaning in question is expressed by a derivation from some other root with a different meaning, and so is unlikely to be cognate. In one case I have "[NIL]", because I found evidence for the morpheme in compounds and stuff, but it's not listed in the lexicon. Also this table may end up looking like shit because there's no way I'm going through and making sure everything lines up.

Alright, enough of that. Let's get this party started!

Code:
      OS         Wd

here      luļ         ?
there      laŋ / ḍim-      ?
who      -beg-         -bogu-
what      -beg-         -bogu-
where      ?         --
when      --         --
how      ?         ?
not      -ţas         dowo / -ze
all      -doļ         ?
many      kaş-?         ?
some      -bab         paun
few      -bab         ?
other      -gog         jok
big      riḍ-         ŋor
long      -dim         śim
wide      ?         ?
thick      ?         ?
heavy      ?         ?
small      -its         śiya
short      ?         ?
narrow      ?         ?
thin      ?         ?
woman      maşḍ-         ma:r / zi[mi]
man      pasn-         tel / gu[:me]
human      mand-?         de:i?
kid      --         ?
wife      --         --
husband   --         ?
mother      meln-?         papa
father      ŋism-?         data
animal      ?         --
fish      ţag         sakana
bird      --         na:i
dog      [rark]         ?
louse      ?         ?
snake      ?         miriŋ
worm      ?         ?
tree      ?         śu:
forest      geŋ         jen
stick      ?         tur
fruit      ?         gauji
seed      nibu / ḍad      rada
leaf      ?         ?
root      ?         ?
bark [n]   ?         da:ur?
flower      narş- ([v])      ŋeka
grass      --         biźi
rope      ?         --
skin      --         da:ur
meat      --         zu
blood      ?         tareŋ
bone      ?         ?
fat [n]      şilp-?         ?
egg      ?         ril
horn      ?         ?
tail      ?         ?
feather      ?         ?
hair      bol-         po:
head      um- [NIL]      yuma
ear      --         moga
eye      --         i:l
nose      sig-?         źuko
mouth      --         ka:u
tooth      ?         ki
tongue      ?         ŋauji
fingernail   ?         ?
foot      gan-         keŋ
leg      --         kai
knee      ?         ?
hand      teļ-         ŋa:i
wing      ?         ?
belly      ?         ?
guts      --         ?
neck      ?         kariji
back      ?         ?
breast      --         źunwen
heart      --         melen
liver      ?         ?
drink      dam-         śagu
eat      ŋels-         go:źi
bite      gim-         kimu
suck      ?         źunu
spit      ?         śubu
vomit      ?         ?
blow      ḍegl-         ?
breathe      ?         jaŋu
laugh      sand-         źe:ti
see      ḍişn-         liu
hear      kisn-         pamu
know      neld-         ze:nu
think      masp-         yedu
smell      sig-?         ?
fear      maŋ-         paiju
sleep      kalt-         ?
live      ?         ?
die      keşg-         koku
kill      keşg-         --
fight      kirk-         ?
hunt      nesd-         ŋo:du
hit      serḍ-         śoŋu
cut      tim-         ?
split      --         ?
stab      sint-         suku
scratch      ?         ?
dig      ţiļk-         ?
swim      setr-         ?
fly [v]      nals-         ?
walk      mne-         nitu
come      gend-         la:u
lie      ŋeḍ-         neru
sit      barḍ-?         waŋu
stand      ţirk-         pulu
turn      miḍ-         muri
fall      targ-         źeku
give      --         ku:ru
hold      ḍarḍ-         ?
squeeze   şekt-         ?
rub      dirb-         ?
wash      salt-         lumu
wipe      --         ?
pull      ?         ?
push      ?         ?
throw      nals-         ?
tie      ?         miku
sew      ?         ?
count      merg-         boyok-
say      neln-         yonu
sing      riŋ-         ŋinu
play      parţ-?         ?
float      şiļm-         ?
flow      ţişḍ-         ?
freeze      ?         ?
swell      ?         ?
sun      --         ru:
moon      --         [various]
star      maḍaŋ         ma:in
water      les- / nam      lu:
rain      pilt-         kunu
river      ḍel         ye
lake      dit         śi
sea      ţal         go:rtu
salt      --         ?
stone      ḍar         śuk
sand      ?         zau
dust      ?         ?
earth      raḍ         ŋaza / pija?
cloud      --         ?
fog      ŋarn-?         ?
sky      ?         ?
wind      ḍegl-         do:
snow      ?         ?
ice      ?         ?
smoke      ?         ?
fire      ksa-?         ŋol
ashes      ?         ?
burn      rel-         ŋol-
road      --         ŋa:una
mountain   sap         ŋu:ma
red      -uşţ         no:
green      -arţ         pik
yellow      ?         źaik
white      -sok         bi:
black      -amn-         joŋ
night      seļg-         seki
day      ḍus         tin
year      past         wata
warm      ŋakt-         ?
cold      -ikt         ?
full      ?         ?
new/young   -naku / -mol?      su: / mo:m
old      -osp         tik
good      -eli         kal
bad      ?         yur
rotten      ḍer-         yur?
dirty      ?         ?
straight      ?         ?
round      şers-         ?
sharp      ?         ruk
dull      ?         ?
smooth      ?         tu:bu
wet      leşţ-         ?
dry      gink-         ?
correct      ?         ?
near      ?         lil
far      didm-? / mirḍ-?   go
right      ?         ta:i
left      ?         ŋir
name      --         ?


Now, on to what all this means. We can remove all the ones for which one or both of the languages lacks a word corresponding to that definition, as well as ones where one or both of the languages uses a derivation from some other root to express that meaning. Ignoring terms that show no evidence of being related, and focusing instead on those which look promising, I think we're left with the following:

(1) "who/what" = OS -beg- / Wd -bogu-
(2) "other" = OS -gog / Wd jok
(3) "long" = OS -dim / Wd śim
(4) ??"small" = OS -its / Wd śiya
(5) "woman/nurture" = OS maşḍ / Wd ma:r
(6) "fish" = OS ţag / Wd sak(ana)
(7) "forest" = OS geŋ / Wd jen
(8) "hair" = OS bol- / Wd po:
(9) "head" = OS ?um- / Wd yuma
(10) "nose/smell" = OS sig- / Wd źuko
(11) "foot" = OS gan / Wd keŋ
(12) ?"eat" = OS ŋels- / Wd go:źi
(13) "bite" = OS gim- / Wd kimu
(14) "laugh" = OS sand- / Wd źe:ti
(15) ??"see" = OS ḍişn- / Wd liu
(16) ?"die/kill" = OS keşg- / Wd koku
(17) ?"hunt" = OS nesd- / Wd ŋo:du
(18) ?"hit" = OS serḍ- / Wd śoŋu
(19) "lie down" = OS ŋeḍ- / Wd neru
(20) ?"sit" = OS barḍ- / Wd waŋu
(21) "turn" = OS miḍ- / Wd muri
(22) ?"fall" = OS targ- / Wd źeku
(23) "count" = OS merg- / Wd boyok-
(24) "say/speak" = OS neln- / Wd yonu
(25) ?"sing" = OS riŋ- / Wd ŋinu
(26) "star" = OS maḍaŋ / Wd ma:in
(27) ??"water" = OS les- / Wd lu:
(28) "river" = OS ḍel / Wd ye
(29) "lake" = OS dit / Wd śi
(30) ??"wind" = OS ḍegl- / Wd do:
(31) ?"burn/fire" = OS rel- / Wd ŋol-
(32) "night" = OS selg- / Wd seki
(33) ?"year" = OS past- / Wd wata
(34) "rotten/bad" = OS ḍer- / Wd yur

Some of these are pretty tenuous, but others look very convincing. There's also a number of regular correspondences here. For instance OS ḍ- regularly corresponds to Wd y-, as in sets 28 and 34, as well as the number "two" from the previous post. On the other hand, word-internally (and sometimes word-finally?) the correspondence is OS -ḍ- to Wd -r-: see sets 19, 21, and possibly 5; however, 26 would seem to not follow this rule. OS voiced stops seem to mostly corresponded to Wd voiceless stops: see sets 2, 6, 8, 10, 11, 13, 14, ?16, ?22, ?23, and 32, as well as my previous post. Also notable is that in many cases consonant clusters in OS correspond to long vowel+consonant sequences in Wd (presumably a case of compensatory lengthening): see sets 5, ?12, 14, ?17, and ??30; there seem to be several exceptions here, though. And these are just the correspondences that immediately jump out at me! I'm sure there's more, but I've been working on this for a while now so I'm not going to bother with that immediately.

EDIT: A few more correspondences. OS ţ : Wd s, for which see 6 as well as the numeral "four" (in my previous post). OS m- seems to correspond to Wd b- in a few cases (set ?23 and the numeral "one") but not in others (sets 5, 21, and 26). Wd also apparently palatalized some instances of **g (or **k?), since there are a few cases where OS g corresponds to Wd j: see sets 2 (the first OS "g") and 7. More often, though, it corresponds to Wd k, as in the numeral "two", the 2sg pronominal affix, and sets 2 (the second OS "g"), 6, 10, 11, 13, ?16, ?22, ?23, and 32. In set 1 it appears to be g in Wd as well.

[EDIT 5/29/2012: At least two of these sets, based on the given etymology of the Wede:i forms, can't be cognate, so I've eliminated them]


Last edited by Whimemsz on Tue May 29, 2012 12:26 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:56 pm 
Avisaru
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By the way Zompist I better get, like, mad extra bonus points for this.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:19 pm 
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Yes, you've got it, congrats. I'm happy the mystery has lasted for five years, though now I guess I'll have to make something more subtle yet...

There's actually about 150 cognates; a large fraction have semantic changes as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:40 pm 
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zompist wrote:
Yes, you've got it, congrats. I'm happy the mystery has lasted for five years, though now I guess I'll have to make something more subtle yet...

There's actually about 150 cognates; a large fraction have semantic changes as well.
Did you actually derive the language from a proto-lang you built?

Also: excellent work Whimemsz! What do you think we should call this family?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:40 pm 
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Atom wrote:
zompist wrote:
Yes, you've got it, congrats. I'm happy the mystery has lasted for five years, though now I guess I'll have to make something more subtle yet...

There's actually about 150 cognates; a large fraction have semantic changes as well.
Did you actually derive the language from a proto-lang you built?

Also: excellent work Whimemsz! What do you think we should call this family?

Taësic, from "ours", in the same vein as Nostratic.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:50 pm 
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It has a name, but as a bit of recognition for Whim, if he can suggest a reasonable name I'll use that.

(I'm not sure about putting it on Almeopedia; I kind of like having some things less obvious.)


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 11:49 pm 
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Impressive work Whimemsz, congratulations!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:21 am 
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That's some hard work there. Way to go, Whims!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:44 am 
Avisaru
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There should be a special ZBB Award for unlocking Almean mysteries.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:20 am 
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Yay! Congratulations!

Now I have no excuse but to start reconstructing Proto-Western...

:?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:53 am 
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I shall try to figure out some morphology tonight. However, the typology of the two is so fricking different, it'll take a while.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 11:47 am 
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zompist wrote:
It has a name, but as a bit of recognition for Whim, if he can suggest a reasonable name I'll use that.


It's actually much harder than it sounds to come up with a good name. At first I thought about going the "Penutian" route, but that would end up as something like ḍogyokian or Yokḍogian, which I think we can all agree are pretty hideous. How about a cash prize in lieu of that honor?


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:36 pm 
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Bomotian, however, isn't too bad, or Bomotic. Yonunelnic?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:46 pm 
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Yokḍogian isn't that bad.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:50 pm 
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No, it's pretty terrible, actually.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:07 pm 
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"Bomotic" isn't half bad. It looks a lot like Omotic, though. And Omotian sounds a bit sillier to me.


-----------------------------------------------

A few more likely or possible cognate sets:

(35) "south" = OS ţar / Wd saŋ
(36) ?"north" = OS ḍan / Wd lun
(37) "east" = OS kom / Wd ju
(38) "west" = OS boḍ / Wd wor
(39) "brother" = OS ḍed- / Wd roda
(40) "sister" = OS meld- / Wd beda
(41) "hemp" = OS naşgu / Wd naka
(42) "rule/inherit" = OS baţş- / Wd paźiwa "king"
(43) "branch/arm" = OS daļg- / Wd te:
(44) "deer" = OS mulg- / Wd buka
(45) "beard" = OS ŋarḍ / Wd ge:ŋ
(46) ??"inside" = OS ḍadŋ- / Wd ra
(47) ?"cat" = OS kuļiŋ "mountain lion" / Wd jo:na
(48) "here/this" = OS luļ / Wd lil
(49) "before" = OS mur- / Wd bu
(50) "upward/above" = OS dem- / Wd śen
(51) "below/under" = OS men- / Wd ben
(52) "middle" = OS saln- / Wd sai

A number of these display the same correspondences as I laid out in my earlier posts. For instance, the ubiquitous OS vd.stop : Wd vls.stop, in sets 41, 42, 43, 44, and possibly ?50 (if Wd ś reflects palatalization of an earlier *t). OS ţ : Wd s is illustrated in 35. The OS m- : Wd b- correspondence I mentioned in my last post as a possible one seems to be exemplified in these sets several times: see 40, 44, 49, and 51. The Wd correspondences to OS seem even more complex now. There are no examples here of OS ḍ- : Wd y-, but there are several cases where initial OS ḍ- corresponds to Wd r- (the same correspondence I took to be regular when word-medial and possibly -final; see also set 38): sets 39 and ??46; possibly set ?36 is to be included here as well, with Wd l a later development? (this would then perhaps be parallel to set ??15) It also looks like there is a regular (though odd) correspondence of OS rḍ and Wd ŋ, exemplified here by set 45, but in my previous post as well, in sets ?18 and ?20 [the question marks can probably be removed: these look like pretty secure cognates to me now].

I'll also add that it now looks like the numeral "three" is probably cognate between the two families as well. There are a number of sets in which OS d or t correspond to Wd ś or ź before a front vowel: 3, ?22, 29, and 50.


EDIT: I added two more cognate sets. Also I'll point out that the marker for Y/N questions in OS, -si may be related to either the Wd marker for negatives -ze or the Wd marker for Y/N questions, -źu. The OS prefix ŋok- "finish" may be related to the Wd suffix -ok "past tense", as well?


Last edited by Whimemsz on Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:09 pm 
Avisaru
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rotting ham wrote:
There should be a special ZBB Award for unlocking Almean mysteries.


Maybe this can get the "Best Thread" award this year, then?







(It should)


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:43 pm 
Avisaru
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(53) "each/every" = OS -doļ / Wd to:l (not sure how I missed this one...)

Okay, a few more possible connections between morphological affixes (see the edits to my previous post for a few others).

OS me- "pretense/doubt" is possibly connected to Wd -mi "reportative"
OS ru- "quickly/urgently" can probably be connected to Wd -ro "imperative"
OS ge- "case reset" is maaaaybe connected with Wd -ka "connective"?
OS nen- "comparative" may be connected to Wd -ne "contrastive"


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:53 pm 
Avisaru
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Whimemsz wrote:
zompist wrote:
It has a name, but as a bit of recognition for Whim, if he can suggest a reasonable name I'll use that.


It's actually much harder than it sounds to come up with a good name. At first I thought about going the "Penutian" route, but that would end up as something like ḍogyokian or Yokḍogian, which I think we can all agree are pretty hideous. How about a cash prize in lieu of that honor?


I think a character/nation on Almea is the highest honour available m'self.

PS. This is going to have extra interesting implications when Tzhuro is released - I wondered how much of a proto-Lenani language had been developed or whether Mark would be "working backwards" on that one - now I think we know the answer!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:01 pm 
Avisaru
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Whimemsz wrote:
It also looks like there is a regular (though odd) correspondence of OS rḍ and Wd ŋ, exemplified here by set 45, but in my previous post as well, in sets ?18 and ?20 [the question marks can probably be removed: these look like pretty secure cognates to me now].

Per sets 31 and 35 this could be just r ~ ŋ actually.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:32 pm 
Sanci
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MrKrov wrote:
No, it's pretty terrible, actually.
I don't get what's so bad about it. It's just a name, it doesn't need to be pretty or anything.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:48 pm 
Avisaru
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Azulene wrote:
Whimemsz wrote:
It also looks like there is a regular (though odd) correspondence of OS rḍ and Wd ŋ, exemplified here by set 45, but in my previous post as well, in sets ?18 and ?20 [the question marks can probably be removed: these look like pretty secure cognates to me now].

Per sets 31 and 35 this could be just r ~ ŋ actually.


Good point!

-------------------------

Alright, now that I have a better handle on some of the various correspondences, I can spot a few more cognates (or potential cognates) in the Swadesh list that I missed on the first pass:

(54) "big" = OS riḍ- / Wd ŋor
(55) "seed" = OS ḍad / Wd rada

Also, for ease of future reference, might as well assign the other words from various posts correspondence set numbers:

(56) "one" = OS moţ / Wd bo
(57) "two" = OS ḍog / Wd yok
(58) "three" = OS ded / Wd śir
(59) "four" = OS darţ / Wd tause
(60) "five" = OS bim / Wd pina
(61) "1sg" = OS -ŋ(o)- / Wd -no
(62) "1pl" = OS -dor- / Wd -tu
(63) "2sg" = OS -g(o)- / Wd -ku
(64) "2pl" = OS -beş- / Wd -we

I hesitate to include the possible connections of morphological affixes, since all involve semantic or pragmatic shifts, and all are very short and thus have a high probability of being similar due to chance. Dhokarena, what happened to your grammatical analysis? >:|


Also, this would be a lot friggin' easier if we knew stuff about Tžuro, Mei, Fei, etc.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 11:55 am 
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Whimemsz wrote:
Also, this would be a lot friggin' easier if we knew stuff about Tžuro, Mei, Fei, etc.
Well unless Zompist has been hiding something all these years...

Anyways, just a little something for me to help visualize. I recolored the language map to show only the highest level organization for language families (Eastern, Wedei-Littoral (or whatever you decide to call, and Ur-Kagot).


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lang.png
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