On A Genetic Connection Between Skourene and Wedei

[Alces]

I did some comparison of Almean languages a while ago, too, but never really found any good evidence. Here's some other possible cognates though:

Wede:i <na:i> 'bird' and OS <nals> 'fly, bird'
Wede:i <tok> 'blue' and OS <toş> 'blue'
Wede:i <mai> 'wheat' and OS <maki> 'wheat'
Wede:i <mo:mo> 'young' and OS <-mol> 'young'
Wede:i <biźi> 'grass' and OS <misn> 'grass, graze'
Wede:i <bika> 'fir' and OS <migas> 'fir, pine'
Wede:i <jiro> 'moment, hour, time' and OS <ḍira> 'hour'
Wede:i <tik> 'old' and OS <ḍesp-> 'old'

[Atom]

Yes, you've got it, congrats. I'm happy the mystery has lasted for five years, though now I guess I'll have to make something more subtle yet...

I predict... Eynelyni/Qarau and Uyse?ic.

[Zortzi]

Hahaha!

I don't know...maybe something to do with Munkhashi? Western? Palthuk?

Although I like your map a lot, I thought I heard somewhere that Eynleyni and Qarau were distantly related...

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

Although I like your map a lot, I thought I heard somewhere that Eynleyni and Qarau were distantly related...

This?

Source : zompist.com

[Zortzi]

Yes, partially that, but also partially Almeopedia. Is the link too tenuous or something?

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

Yes, partially that, but also partially Almeopedia. Is the link too tenuous or something?

It may be distant, but it might turn out quite visible.

[WeepingElf]

Perhaps zompist is just pulling our legs or whatever, and all uestu languages are related to each other

[Neek]

Interesting... very interesting.

*strokes chin*

Maybe I should concert a new reconstruction of Proto-Eastern in lines with the idea of a Skourene-Wedei-Eastern connection.

[Yæd]

For the proto-name, I'd suggest Proto-Southern, by analogy with Proto-Eastern.

[Earthling]

For the proto-name, I'd suggest Proto-Southern, by analogy with Proto-Eastern.

He already did that...

[Whimemsz]

Since this has been resurrected...if it's not too late, I'll still try to go the "Penutian"/"Ritwan" route and name it after the number "two"--in this case it has to be an approximate reconstruction or else the name will be too hideous. I'll suggest either "Rokan" or "Rokian" because those are the most appealing, I think, of the possible reconstructions for "two."

[zompist]

*njok is the actual word for 'two' I used, so that'd be a better basis. (The Mei word is ñok, vowel uncertain.)

[Whimemsz]

Okay. I think "Nyok(i)an" or "Njok(i)an" still seems to work pretty well? Obviously it's your world so you can go whatever direction with it you want!

[Herr Dunkel]

Perhaps zompist is just pulling our legs or whatever, and all uestu languages are related to each other

Or none are, none at all

[Bedelato]

I knew Virtual Verduria probably wasn't telling us everything, but this...

[Yæd]

So, let's summarize what has been done so far:

(1) "who/what" = OS -beg- / Wd -bogu-
(2) "other" = OS -gog / Wd jok
(3) "long" = OS -dim / Wd śim
(4) ??"small" = OS -its / Wd śiya / Tz -it
(5) "woman/nurture" = OS maşḍ / Wd ma:r
(6) "fish" = OS ţag / Wd sak(ana)
(7) "forest" = OS geŋ / Wd jen
(8) "hair" = OS bol- / Wd po:
(9) "head" = OS ?um- / Wd yuma
(10) "nose/smell" = OS sig- / Wd źuko
(11) "foot" = OS gan / Wd keŋ
(12) ?"eat" = OS ŋels- / Wd go:źi
(13) "bite" = OS gim- / Wd kimu
(14) "laugh" = OS sand- / Wd źe:ti
(15) ??"see" = OS ḍişn- / Wd liu
(16) ?"die/kill" = OS keşg- / Wd koku
(17) ?"hunt" = OS nesd- / Wd ŋo:du
(18) ?"hit" = OS serḍ- / Wd śoŋu
(19) "lie down" = OS ŋeḍ- / Wd neru
(20) ?"sit" = OS barḍ- / Wd waŋu
(21) "turn" = OS miḍ- / Wd muri
(22) ?"fall" = OS targ- / Wd źeku
(23) "count" = OS merg- / Wd boyok- [NO]
(24) "say/speak" = OS neln- / Wd yonu
(25) ?"sing" = OS riŋ- / Wd ŋinu
(26) "star" = OS maḍaŋ / Wd ma:in
(27) ??"water" = OS les- / Wd lu:
(28) "river" = OS ḍel / Wd ye / Tz jal
(29) "lake" = OS dit / Wd śi
(30) ??"wind" = OS ḍegl- / Wd do:
(31) ?"burn/fire" = OS rel- / Wd ŋol-
(32) "night" = OS selg- / Wd seki
(33) ?"year" = OS past- / Wd wata
(34) "rotten/bad" = OS ḍer- / Wd yur
(35) "south" = OS ţar / Wd saŋ
(36) ?"north" = OS ḍan / Wd lun
(37) "east" = OS kom / Wd ju
(38) "west" = OS boḍ / Wd wor
(39) "brother" = OS ḍed- / Wd roda
(40) "sister" = OS meld- / Wd beda
(41) "hemp" = OS naşgu / Wd naka
(42) "rule/inherit" = OS baţş- / Wd paźiwa "king"
(43) "branch/arm" = OS daļg- / Wd te:
(44) "deer" = OS mulg- / Wd buka
(45) "beard" = OS ŋarḍ / Wd ge:ŋ
(46) ??"inside" = OS ḍadŋ- / Wd ra
(47) ?"cat" = OS kuļiŋ "mountain lion" / Wd jo:na
(48) "here/this" = OS luļ / Wd lil
(49) "before" = OS mur- / Wd bu
(50) "upward/above" = OS dem- / Wd śen
(51) "below/under" = OS men- / Wd ben
(52) "middle" = OS saln- / Wd sai
(53) "each/every" = OS -doļ / Wd to:l
(54) "big" = OS riḍ- / Wd ŋor / Tz -luj
(55) "seed" = OS ḍad / Wd rada
(56) "one" = OS moţ / Wd bo / Tz mo
(57) "two" = OS ḍog / Wd yok / Tz ñok
(58) "three" = OS ded / Wd śir / Tz dej
(59) "four" = OS darţ / Wd tause
(60) "five" = OS bim / Wd pina
(61) "1sg" = OS -ŋ(o)- / Wd -no
(62) "1pl" = OS -dor- / Wd -tu
(63) "2sg" = OS -g(o)- / Wd -ku
(64) "2pl" = OS -beş- / Wd -we
(65) “bird” = OS nals / Wd na:i
(66) “blue” = OS toş / Wd tok
(67) “wheat” = OS maki / Wd mai / Tz mahi
(68) “young” = OS -mol / Wd mo:mo
(69) “grass” = OS misn / Wd biźi
(70) “fir” = OS migas / Wd bika
(71) “moment” = OS ḍira / Wd jiro
(72) “old” = OS ḍesp- / Wd tik
(73) ?“city” = OS eŋ / Tz im
(74) “person” = OS mand / Wd bogu / Tz man
(75) "body, flesh" = OS med / Wd beśa

I added sets for the cognates Alces found (65-72) and, basing on the Almeopedia page, I added Tžuro correspondence to sets 4, 28, 54, 56, 57, 58, and 67.
Then I included sets 73, 74, 75. There seems to be no Wd cognate to 73 (???dau), please correct me if I'm wrong. I also noticed that Wd bogu "individual, person, someone" could more probably be related to OS mand "people, nation" (and Tžuro man "people") than to OS -beg- "who, what", see 1.
Finally, I would like to open a debate on vowels: I found out that they show up to be the same in both languages, but there are some (apparently) unexplicable exceptions, e.g. OS o / Wd u (37, 62); OS e / Wd o (12, 16, 17, 18, 24, 30, 31, 39) and few others. Laryngeals?

[Whimemsz]

Part of the difficulty with reconstructing vowels will be the triconsonantal root system of the Lenani-Littoral languages; it's not clear that the "citation root" forms of OS wordgroups that I've been comparing with Wede:i are actually the "most cognate" forms, as it were. If that makes sense. That being said, I do think there's some evidence that the citation forms of OS are the best forms of each root to use for comparative purposes; for instance, those in which the final two consonants form a cluster in the citation form generally correspond to Wede:i words with long vowels or diphthongs plus a single consonant, as though an older cluster had been simplified, with compensatory lengthening and/or vowel breaking.

As for Wd bogu : OS mand, I doubt it. The Wd g : OS nd correspondence has no precedent in any of the other sets (Wd g normally corresponds to OS ŋ, as in sets 12 and 45, while OS nd corresponds to Wd :t in set 14, as we might expect given the more general Wd [voiceless stop] : OS [voiced stop] correspondence). In any case, the Wede:i lexicon gives the etymology of bogu as "one" + "person," so the part to be comparing is -gu.

I may try going through the lexicons and seeing what further possible cognates I can find.

[EDIT: Also OS for "night" should be seḷg, not selg]

EDIT2: I'm getting tired of this now so I'll post what I've got so far:

(76) "pay attention": OS bam- "watch, observe" / Wd pamu "hear, listen"
(77) "wood": OS burn / Wd puŋan
(78) "wrap": OS deg- / Wd śok "bundle"
(79) "six": OS mar / Wd baŋ
(80) "lip": OS melm / Wd beme
(81) "apart, isolated": OS mirḍ / Wd bori "island" [cf OS mreḍa "island" from the same root]
(82) "drink, choose (?)": OS dam- "drink" / Wd tenu "elect, choose"

EDIT3: And some more dubious ones:

(83) ??"weep": OS derk- / Wd ti:zi
(84) ?"cross, intersect": OS dil- / Wd tu: "crossroads"
(85) ?"pour out, measure (?)": OS manṭ- "weigh, measure" / Wd bu:nu "empty, pour out"
(86) ??"establish": OS ṭart- / Wd dau "city" [cf OS ṭreta "city-state, country, land" from the same root]

EDIT4: ALSO one I missed in the Swadesh list long ago:

(87) "earth": OS raḍ / Wd ŋaza

[zompist]

As I said earlier, there's about 150 shared roots, so you're about halfway there. If you've got the correspondences for the initials, you can probably find the rest.

I could point out errors if you like, but maybe that's cheating. But I know from trying to reconstruct Ran's proto-Isles that a few non-cognates mixed in can make the whole enterprise difficult.

[Whimemsz]

No, don't point out the errors, this way it's more realistic!

[it's not realistic that we have no Tzuro/etc or Mei/Fei/etc data to work with, though -- better get on that, man!]

[Atom]

No, don't point out the errors, this way it's more realistic!

[it's not realistic that we have no Tzuro/etc or Mei/Fei/etc data to work with, though -- better get on that, man!]

We have some Tzuro data, which i think is likely to be important. For instance, the maki/mai/mahi (67) and mand/bogu/man pretty clearly shows that theres more than just a m/b correspondence for Skourene/Wedei.

[Atom]

No, don't point out the errors, this way it's more realistic!

[it's not realistic that we have no Tzuro/etc or Mei/Fei/etc data to work with, though -- better get on that, man!]

We have some Tzuro data, which i think is likely to be important. For instance, the maki/mai/mahi (67) and mand/bogu/man pretty clearly shows that theres more than just a m/b correspondence for Skourene/Wedei.

Observation:
I've been looking at /d/ in Skourene, and I think I've figured it out.

Skourene:
*d -> d

Wedei:
*d->???->ś/_{ie}
*d->t/#_
*d->d

This accounts for almost all the instances of ś except (4) and (18). I think (18) is simply not a cognate, as it's the only one where Skourene s corresponds to Wedei ś. I think (4) is also not cognate, as Tzure shows -it, not anything like śiya, but rather like -its.

Wedei ź seems to correspond to Skourene s, but there's too few examples for me to really see the pattern.

I'm pretty sure that something weird happened to PS nasals, they're reflexes in Skourene and Wedei are hard (for instance Skourene r often seems to be Wedei ŋ, like in (31) and (54)). There also must be two phonemes to explain b and m, as they're are clear patterns of both OS b#/ W m# / Tz m# and OS m#/ W m# / Tz m#.

[Ars Lande]

It's been a while since anyone's tried reconstructing proto-Nyokan.
I've made some attemps over the week-end; I'm not very good at this, so this is probably really sloppy; but here we go anyway:

Initials

b and p
I could find two correspondence sets for initial b:
- Wede:i w / OS b: beş / we, barḍ, waŋu
- Wede:i p / OS b: bim / pina, baţş, paźiwa

Bogu was a bit of a puzzle until I checked the Wede:i lexicon and realized it wasn't cognate.

So I'm going to reconstruct proto-Nyokan *b > Wede:i w.
I'm pretty sure OS consistently voices stops before vowels, so p-N *p > OS b. But more on that later.
(I'm also rather sure that bsepa 'clan' and 'papa', mother are cognates. (Also, Tzhuro fsava 1) Begins with a voiceless sound 2) Refers to matrilinear clans).
We don't have a lot of correspondences for initial p in OS. Just past / wata, and I see nothing really inspiring in the lexicons for now. I'll leave that one alone.

Initial t / d

There's a Wede:i t / OS d correspondance, which I expected:
doļ / to:l
dor / tu
darţ / tause

There's also a Wede:i ś/ OS d correspondence:
ded śir
dim śim
dit śi

It's fairly tempting to reconstruct *t for these, and to posit:
*t > *d in OS
*t > *ś before a front vowel in Wede:i

I'm really bothered by these:
targ źeku
toş tok

and more generally, what about OS t?

Initial retroflexes

At this stage, things get a little confusing



OS ḍad / Wd rada
ḍad
rada
ḍed
roda
ḍer
riŋu

Except there’s the number 'two'.
ḍog / yok

Let’s posit :
*ḍ > Wede:i *r
*nj > OS ḍ, Wede:i y

Come to think of it, wouldn't nj > n make more sense. It really looks like neln / yonu are cognates.
OK, I’m blocked. Let’s move on. There’s definitely an OS ţ / Wede:i s correspondance.

ţag
sak
ţar
saŋ

Also, ṭaşg- and suku. Both mean ‘pierce’. Quite possibly cognates.

Nasals and rhotics

Let’s start with OS m.

(75) "body, flesh" = OS med / Wd beśa
(40) "sister" = OS meld- / Wd beda
(51) "below/under" = OS men- / Wd ben
(21) "turn" = OS miḍ- / Wd muri
(68) “young” = OS -mol / Wd mo:mo
(26) "star" = OS maḍaŋ / Wd ma:in
(5) "woman/nurture" = OS maşḍ / Wd ma:r

OK… So I’m going to reconstruct *m > OS *m, Wd *b, but I don't know what to make of the m - m set.

OS ŋ corresponds either to Wd g or n.
(61) "1sg" = OS -ŋ(o)- / Wd -no
(45) "beard" = OS ŋarḍ / Wd ge:ŋ
(19) "lie down" = OS ŋeḍ- / Wd neru

Finally, a pretty much straightforward set to end this post: OS initial r / Wd ŋ:

raḍ / ŋaza
rel / ŋol
ren / ŋewa
riḍ / ŋor
riŋ / ŋin

[Ars Lande]

Vowels

I really feel the painful effects of lack of data.
The cognate list is short enough that one non-cognate form is probably enough to make the whole analysis invalid.

But hey, why not try anyway?
Once again, that's probably really, really sloppy.

It seems pretty obvious that OS drops the root's final vowels. I won't touch OS morphology with a long stick for now, but I suspect some sort of syncope rule is at play.
Pairs such as :

Code: Select all

(16) ?"die/kill" = OS keşg- / Wd koku
(32) "night" = OS selg- / Wd seki	
(70) “fir” = OS migas / Wd bika		

suggest, once again, that stops might have been voiced before vowels.

The vowels look pretty stable actually; we'll concentrate on the cases where there's a difference.

Code: Select all

(36) ?"north" = OS ḍan / Wd lun	ḍan 	lun	a	u
(43) "branch/arm" = OS daļg- / Wd te:	daļg	te:	a	e:
(11) "foot" = OS gan / Wd keŋ	gan	keŋ	a	e
(14) "laugh" = OS sand- / Wd źe:ti	sand-	źe:ti	a	e:
(45) "beard" = OS ŋarḍ / Wd ge:ŋ	ŋarḍ 	ge:ŋ	a	e:
(59) "four" = OS darţ / Wd tause	darţ 	tause	a	au
(22) ?"fall" = OS targ- / Wd źeku	targ	targ	a	e
(5) "woman/nurture" = OS maşḍ / Wd ma:r	maşḍ	ma:r	a	a:
(65) “bird” = OS nals / Wd na:i	nals 	na:i	a	a:
(52) "middle" = OS saln- / Wd sai	saln	sai	a	ai
(39) "brother" = OS ḍed- / Wd roda	ḍed	roda	e	o
(34) "rotten/bad" = OS ḍer- / Wd yur	ḍer	riŋu	e	i
(72) “old” = OS ḍesp- / Wd tik	ḍesp	tik	e	i
(30) ??"wind" = OS ḍegl- / Wd do:	ḍegl	do:	e	o
(16) ?"die/kill" = OS keşg- / Wd koku	keşg	koku	e	o
(23) "count" = OS merg- / Wd boyok- [NO]	merg	boyok	e	o
(24) "say/speak" = OS neln- / Wd yonu	neln	yonu	e	o
(17) ?"hunt" = OS nesd- / Wd ŋo:du	nesd	ŋo:du	e	o
(32) "night" = OS selg- / Wd seki	selg	seki	e	e:
(58) "three" = OS ded / Wd śir / Tz dej	ded 	śir 	e	i
(27) ??"water" = OS les- / Wd lu:	les	lu	e	u
(12) ?"eat" = OS ŋels- / Wd go:źi	ŋels	go:zi	e	o:
(31) ?"burn/fire" = OS rel- / Wd ŋol-	rel	ŋol	e	o
(18) ?"hit" = OS serḍ- / Wd śoŋu	serḍ	śoŋu	e	o
(15) ??"see" = OS ḍişn- / Wd liu	ḍişn	liu	i	iu
(21) "turn" = OS miḍ- / Wd muri	miḍ	muri	i	u
(54) "big" = OS riḍ- / Wd ŋor / Tz -luj	riḍ	ŋor 	i	o
(10) "nose/smell" = OS sig- / Wd źuko	sig	zuko	i	u
(62) "1pl" = OS -dor- / Wd -tu	dor	tu	o	u
(63) "2sg" = OS -g(o)- / Wd -ku	g(o)	ku	o	u
(37) "east" = OS kom / Wd ju	kom 	ju	o	u
(47) ?"cat" = OS kuļiŋ "mountain lion" / Wd jo:na	kuļiŋ 	jo:na	u	o:

These are interesting:

Code: Select all

(43) "branch/arm" = OS daļg- / Wd te:	daļg	te:	a	e:
(14) "laugh" = OS sand- / Wd źe:ti	sand-	źe:ti	a	e:
(45) "beard" = OS ŋarḍ / Wd ge:ŋ	ŋarḍ 	ge:ŋ	a	e:

In both cases, there's a nasal either in OS or Wd.

Another intriguing pattern:

Code: Select all

(16) ?"die/kill" = OS keşg- / Wd koku	keşg	koku	e	o
(24) "say/speak" = OS neln- / Wd yonu	neln	yonu	e	o
(17) ?"hunt" = OS nesd- / Wd ŋo:du	nesd	ŋo:du	e	o
(10) "nose/smell" = OS sig- / Wd źuko	sig	zuko	i	u
(39) "brother" = OS ḍed- / Wd roda	ḍed	roda	e	o

Basically, it looks like whenever the following vowel, preserved in Wede:i is a back vowel, the first vowels is backed in Wd.
Could this be a form of vowel harmony ?
*keku > koku (?)
*yenu > yonu (?)
*ziko > zuko (?)

(Also, boyok really looks like it wants to be cognate with melg; it's not).

Code: Select all

(65) “bird” = OS nals / Wd na:i	nals 	na:i
(52) "middle" = OS saln- / Wd sai	saln	sai

Hey, that could be an al > ai change!
Except for that pair:

Code: Select all

(43) "branch/arm" = OS daļg- / Wd te:	daļg	te:

Damn.

[Ars Lande]

A handful of -tentative- reconstructions

I've found that it helps to maintain a list of possible ancestors.
Here are some of the most plausible ones (Doesn't mean I'm satisfied with them, though).

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(51) "below/under" = OS men- / Wd ben	*men	
(64) "2pl" = OS -beş- / Wd -we	*bes	
(38) "west" = OS boḍ / Wd wor	*boD	
(8) "hair" = OS bol- / Wd po:	*pol	
(20) ?"sit" = OS barḍ- / Wd waŋu	*barDu	
(55) "seed" = OS ḍad / Wd rada	*Dada	
(16) ?"die/kill" = OS keşg- / Wd koku	*keSku
(13) "bite" = OS gim- / Wd kimu	*kimu	
(70) “fir” = OS migas / Wd bika	*mikas
(40) "sister" = OS meld- / Wd beda	*melda
"~beget" OS besp / Wd papa	*paspa	
(29) "lake" = OS dit / Wd śi	 *tit
(14) "laugh" = OS sand- / Wd źe:ti *santi
(18) ?"hit" = OS serḍ- / Wd śoŋu	*serDu

Now I'd really like to know how close I got

[zompist]

Now I'd really like to know how close I got

OK, sure. Here's your list with my own proto-terms added.

Code: Select all

(51) "below/under" = OS men- / Wd ben	*men / *mjeŋ	
(64) "2pl" = OS -beş- / Wd -we	*bes	/ * -pje
(38) "west" = OS boḍ / Wd wor	*boD	 / *pjoc
(8) "hair" = OS bol- / Wd po:	*pol	/ * pulo
(20) ?"sit" = OS barḍ- / Wd waŋu	*barDu / *pjaγ
(55) "seed" = OS ḍad / Wd rada	*Dada / *cata
(16) ?"die/kill" = OS keşg- / Wd koku	*keSku / *kosk-
(13) "bite" = OS gim- / Wd kimu	*kimu / *kim-
(70) “fir” = OS migas / Wd bika	*mikas / * mika
(40) "sister" = OS meld- / Wd beda	*melda / * mjeta
"~beget" OS besp / Wd papa	*paspa / not cognate, I think
(29) "lake" = OS dit / Wd śi	 *tit / *tji
(14) "laugh" = OS sand- / Wd źe:ti *santi / *sant-
(18) ?"hit" = OS serḍ- / Wd śoŋu	*serDu / *sjoγ-

I'm pretty sure proto-Southern *c was in fact [c], i.e. a palatal stop. A few of the phonemes make more sense when you have the Mei correspondences— indeed, the Mei reflex of *c is c.

Proto-Southern is reconstructed without any voicing contrasts, but a systematic palatalization (à la Russian) represented by *j.