Translation challenge... for me

[zompist]

Maybe I'm missing something here. To use my previous example, suppose I tell you to translate "Sense-perception is an unceasing process". If you create a Demoshi word meaning "process" and add it to the lexicon, then I'd say the language will become too English-like once most of its vocabulary consists of such back-translated words.

What I make of this is that you're worried that to translate "process", I'll go create a root glossed "process", like a noob. I don't know why you'd think I operate this way. I mean, I've explained how I operate in a long web essay and in a book, and I have a dozen examples to look at. Heck, look at the very word you pointed out— I didn't create a root ‘process’, I pointed to a near-synonym, itself a compound (zhuy + doni).

Obviously this exercise leads to conworlding dilemmas, such as I explicated in my last post for the word ‘saint’. Another in the same sentence was ‘reason’. This wouldn't really be a concept that made sense to the Munkhâshi. Their descendants on the other hand were exposed to Cadhinorian science and philosophy, so they just borrowed a Sarroc word. This sort of thing is why I create conworlds as well as conlangs.

Again, if you look at the glosses and see something that seems too English-like, by all means say so. But I'm not sure why you're bringing up dangers that are obvious to any experienced linguist or translator.

[rotting bones]

What I make of this is that you're worried that to translate "process", I'll go create a root glossed "process", like a noob.

I give up.

Obviously this exercise leads to conworlding dilemmas, such as I explicated in my last post for the word ‘saint’.

I really liked that translation.

PS. I want to say something like "Keep it up!" but that sounds patronizing even in my head.

PPS. I mean it, but I can't figure out how to say it, so I'll say that instead.

Sal: I'm curious, how would you translate that sentence into a language without a word for "process"?

[zompist]

Happy families are all alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."

Joja rêrêgla she zhiniw; ôwmin benôkh rêgla she zhiruniw penatwo çinshedo.
same.E-pl pl-family every happy.E-act.part / however follow.E family every happy.not-act.part method particular[/b]

Most of Sal's sentences are too heavy on Earth or even futuristic referents, but I'll look at some more of them later.

In light of rotting ham's comments, I should point out that the glosses may hide many divergences from English. Çinshero, for instance, has a similar etymology to ‘egregious’ and can be used with similar disapproval, though it also has the more neutral sense here. Penatwo is a nominalization of the preposition penath ‘using’, so its root meaning is ‘what you use (to do something)’. And finally rêgla ‘family’ has very different connotations in Dhekhnami, as trêms not families are the most important social unit.

[rotting bones]

In light of rotting ham's comments, I should point out that the glosses may hide many divergences from English. Çinshero, for instance, has a similar etymology to ‘egregious’ and can be used with similar disapproval, though it also has the more neutral sense here. Penatwo is a nominalization of the preposition penath ‘using’, so its root meaning is ‘what you use (to do something)’. And finally rêgla ‘family’ has very different connotations in Dhekhnami, as trêms not families are the most important social unit.

Thanks.

Interestingly, the Samsad English-Bengali dictionary doesn't list a word for process in the abstract sense. I might actually have to translate that sentence as "The objects of the indriyas flow like a stream," or something like that. lol

The Million Dollar Question: Is Bengali a language?

[GreenBowTie]

Maybe a little Earth-centric, but "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

[bulbaquil]

Maybe a little Earth-centric, but "All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

You can't translate that into Dhekhnami of all languages! It's tripleplusungood crimethink! The ktuvok overlords would never accept it!

[eodrakken]

You can't translate that into Dhekhnami of all languages! It's tripleplusungood crimethink! The ktuvok overlords would never accept it!

Sure you can, just begin it with "Some fools believe".

Here's a TC, something a friend just said to me:

"I can't even find an empty container to put give-away food in."

[justin]

"Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."

[zompist]

The snail, who had never studied calculus, bitterly and voceriferously harrangued his titchy unwanted shellmate over the rude slur on his education the fellow had made.

Khyagabash plighiw zh somiw tlêfna (kath gemabaruf ôkhpa shono piviso)
berate.D.past bitter-act.part and loud-act.part snail (being learn.D.past.not never he.resp calculus)

môkwashivno tsothazhiw zh khyirudhogh
shell-companion tiny-act.part and want.not-pass.part

denish zhmabats tlêkadhiw rêdhna dlachwo dzan shono.
because smear.E.past impertinent-act.part dude education of he.resp

Animals normally don't rise above rank E, but these are anthropomorphized. Tlêkath ‘impertinent’ is literally ’reedy’— the image is of something too tall for it strength. Rêdhna is literally ‘foot’ but is colloquially ‘guy, dude’. The word for calculus is borrowed from Verdurian.

Will any of the sentences be used for illustrative purposes in the grammar you make public, or is this purely a vocabulary building excersize?

Vocabulary and occasionally syntax building. Sentences in a grammar need to be much less baroque.

[zompist]

Hearing this a man in the crowd stood up and began to speak. He wasn't a priest, but a normal man, a farmer. He shouted at the Sarnáeans. He invoked glory of Cadhinas; he reminded the people that they spoke a descendant of Cadhinor, that they were the children of Ervëa, and that as free men they were destined to rule themselves, or at least be ruled by the Verdurians, and not to be slaves to gigantic, malevolent frogs.

Kshêç pshoban nikla, mejabaf zh mebebath dzôthno at.
mention.D hear.E.past this.idea / incep-stand.E.past and incep-speak.E.past human-man any

Garuth zono lithdêçno, gath dzoshiw kshoriw— mwivno at.
be.E.not he.inf priest / be.E human normal-act.part / peasant any

Klolabash çir shashaynôwno.
shout.E.past at pl-Sarnáe-man

This one required a new bit of syntax.

More on this one later, perhaps— need a break.

[rotting bones]

Is it that much of a stretch to imagine a language without a word for "velocity"? Or at least a word that's in common use? Whatever, forget it.

Yes, it is too much of a stress to believe that a society exists that is unable to tell the difference between objects moving at different speeds. And if they can tell the difference, they can talk about it.

Regarding "process": no language has a word for process, not even English, because all languages are different, even from themselves. No too moments are identical, nor any two sets of moments, so no two words in different languages will have identical usages. But so what? So long as we aren't noobs and don't calque all our translations, I fail to see the problem here. How would I translate it? I would use the word or expression that most closely matched the meaning in that context. You know, I would translate. How are processes meant to be different from apples in that regard?

And why would they be able to say the same things as an English-speaker? Because they're not idiots, so of course they can. They can say whatever they want to say. Why would they want to say those things exactly? That's a question for a novelist, not a conlanger, I think. Suffice to say: you have been asked to translate this sentence into that language, and that is the end of it. Of course you may on some occasions crease your brow and ponder for a while between two unappealing possibilities, or else deliberate how much detail need be gone into at the expense of brevity, but that's just what translation is. Throwing up your hands and saying "I don't dare contaminate the language by expressing the philosophies of English-speakers in it" or "there's just no way to say this" is not professional behaviour from a translator!

Languages don't have metaphysical opinions, people do, and any person can learn any language, and take their opinions with them in the process.

[rotting bones]

Okay, but did you have to edit my post to say that?

(I disagree on several points, BTW)

[Neon Fox]

"Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat: it was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort."

(1: I, Claudius 8: Neuromancer 9: Don Quixote 12: A Tale of Two Cities 14: Anna Karenenia 15: Lolita 16: Pride and Prejudice 18: A Canticle for Leibowitz 22: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. 20 is clearly from some Miles Vorkosigan book, but I can't recall which one; I'm going to make a wild stab at Diplomatic Immunity)

[rotting bones]

Well, this is the extract I posted the last time:

rajjo jotoi baRbe take rokkha korbar dai-o to totoi baRbe - tahole thambe kothai?
kingdom as.much grow.3s.fut 3s.obj protect to.do duty-also intensifier that.much grow.3s.fut - then stop.3s.fut where?

kothao na. keboli joi korte hobe, kyanona protap jinishta jekhane thame sheikhane nibe jai.
anywhere no. only conquest do.habitual be.fut, because valor thing.obj which.place.loc stop.3s that.place.loc extinguish go.

I believe I also apologized to zompist for wasting his time with trifles.

PS. Gloss fixed. I should use the preview function more often. Unmarked verbs are in simple present tense.

[zompist]

"Children are completely egoistic; they feel their needs intensely and strive ruthlessly to satisfy them."

Dzôdho boshela niwni rôkhni; glovo nêghzêpwe zodzono dojyôtmu zhmin zeghe lith ôzdêkwo pêwkho dhnala.
worship.E-pl in-everything pl-children guts / feel.E.-pl extreme they.inf pl-need moreover fight.E.-pl for enrichment without mercy

The first clause is translated very strongly— "they worship their guts”, dzôth being the sort of worship or service owed to gods or ktuvoks (thus the word for human, dzoshiw); benuth ‘work for’ would be less dramatic. Rôkhni ‘guts’ is used for humans’ baser nature, of which selfishness is the primary manifestation.

[zompist]

rajjo jotoi baRbe take rokkha korbar dai-o to totoi baRbe - tahole thambe kothai?
kingdom as.much grow.3s.fut 3s.obj protect to.do duty-also intensifier that.much grow.3s.fut - then stop.3s.fut where?

kothao na. keboli joi korte hobe, kyanona protap jinishta jekhane thame sheikhane nibe jai.
anywhere no. only conquest do.habitual be.fut, because valor thing.obj which.place.loc stop.3s that.place.loc extinguish go.

I'm sorry, knowing nothing of Bengali syntax, I need to guess at what this means! My guess...

"A kingdom's defense needs grow as its responsibilities do... where does it stop? Nowhere. It will continually conquer, because where does valor stop?"

[rotting bones]

The first clause is translated very strongly— "they worship their guts”, dzôth being the sort of worship or service owed to gods or ktuvoks (thus the word for human, dzoshiw); benuth ‘work for’ would be less dramatic. Rôkhni ‘guts’ is used for humans’ baser nature, of which selfishness is the primary manifestation.

Awesomesauce! Don't know what else to say.

I'm sorry, knowing nothing of Bengali syntax, I need to guess at what this means!

Sorry about that, all those delexical verbs turn it into quite a word salad. I should have marked all of them.

As the kingdom grows, our duty to defend her (ie. the weight of responsibility) will also increase. Where will it end?
Nowhere. We must keep conquering, (iow: being victorious) because where valor halts, there it is extinguished.

That's the knell for the language prop, then.

PS. Dictionary entry for dai, glossed as "duty":

দায়2 (p. 0495) [ dāẏa2 ] n a danger or difficulty (দায়ে ঠেকা); necessity or need (কী দায় পড়েছে ?); an important duty or responsibility or obligation (মাতৃদায়, কন্যাদায়); an encumbrance (দায়গ্রস্ত); a debt or mortgage, hypothecation (দায়বদ্ধ); a risk, a risky charge (পরের দায় ঘাড়ে নেওয়া); a criminal charge ডাকাতির দায়ে ধরা পড়া = to be arrested on charge of robbery); account, sake (প্রানের দায়ে). দায়ে ঠেকা, দায়ে পড়া v. to be in a difficulty or danger, to be in a trying situation from which escape seems all but impossible, to come to trouble or get into a scrape; to be in an awkward predicament; to be compelled (to). কী দায় পড়েছে what necessity is there? তোমার কী দায় পড়েছে what necessity do you have? প্রাণের দায়ে on account of one's life, for the sake of one's life.

Source: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/biswas-bengali/

[zompist]

"George [or other common name] was skeptical that the device would work as advertised."

Wiçibash Shikhar nikla, jêdôf bludlagh nêsh vawtlaka.
doubt.D.past Shikhar this.idea / work.E.fut mill-dim. like claim

‘Doubt’ is the diminutive of ‘know’; and ‘machine’ is the diminutive of ‘mill’, which has come to mean any huge equipment.

[zompist]

'I do not see the point of a Verdurian citizen, within the boundaries of Verduria, kowtowing to the whim of a Barakhinei barbarian,' the irascible Meleon Savley hissed.

“Demaruf bigo litwo dzan nikla, shejath bonavno muchyero bo zêpwe dzan Múchyenam denish ghyith siblaghine dzan Brakhún,” klibaf Meleyon Savle çirgemighiw nomnikla.

see.D.not I.resp purpose of this.idea / intense-bow.D citizen Verdurian in border of Verduria because want.E horse-bird of Barakhún / breathe.D.past Meleon Savley to-angry-act.part that.idea

Bonavno ‘citizen’ is ‘inside-country-man’, formed by analogy with the older ‘gonavno’ ‘foreigner’. Siblaghine is a despective term, conjuring the image of a bird perched on a horse’s back or head. For ’kowtow’ I just used the intensive of ‘bow’.

I forget if I explained the Dhekhnami word for ‘Verdurian’— muchyeno ‘coyote-man’. This is a reference to the banners of king Estdorot which featured a coyote, an animal the Verdurians admire and the Dhekhnami despise.

[dunomapuka]

This reminds me of a combination of Persian, Hebrew and some North American language. Interested to see how much of the lexicon ends up being of Verdurian/Cadhinor origin!

[Jetboy]

Does the equivalent of barbarian come from some combination of bird and horse, or is that another word? And either way, how did that come about?

[zompist]

Does the equivalent of barbarian come from some combination of bird and horse, or is that another word? And either way, how did that come about?

It's a compound of sibla 'bird' + ghine 'horse', for the reason noted.

[zompist]

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."

Pidzi zh tlojo dzojoshiw she shêv zôkwo kshêç wôyjêpwo zh biŋgwêshmo.
free.D-pl and same.D-pl pl-human every according.to birth mention dignity and privilege

Nzidhi krawkha zh bodhêkwo, zhmin chêf demêth shoshono tlim she penath bwêçna dzan shivnomu.
own.D-pl reason and in-morality moreover act.D should.D they.resp other every using face of companionship

Sadly, perhaps, almost everyone reads this stuff as if it had a hidden clause "...except where that's obviously nonsense." The Soviets happily signed the UN charter; and many Americans read it without giving a thought to the rights of blacks or women— they'd still read it without thinking it meant 5-year-olds have the same rights as adults, or that "a spirit of brotherhood" prevented, say, war or vast disparities of wealth.

BTW, biŋgwêshmo ‘privilege’ is a nominalization of ‘because of rank’; i.e. a perk. A right per se is a biŋgwêshmo shêv bonavno ‘privilege as a citizen’.

[zompist]

rajjo jotoi baRbe take rokkha korbar dai-o to totoi baRbe - tahole thambe kothai?
kingdom as.much grow.3s.fut 3s.obj protect to.do duty-also intensifier that.much grow.3s.fut - then stop.3s.fut where?

kothao na. keboli joi korte hobe, kyanona protap jinishta jekhane thame sheikhane nibe jai.
anywhere no. only conquest do.habitual be.fut, because valor thing.obj which.place.loc stop.3s that.place.loc extinguish go.

Mwodôn nam, chôchwin mwodôn zhdosh denatwo dzan ôzbotwo rush mimla. Çirga ruju gzhodôth?
grow.E.fut country / likewise grow.E.fut also duty of protect against this.one / then where stop.E.fut

Pwashiw. Sadôsh shêftodôth dhman gwatwo, denish kshêç gzhodôth, mejaruw aŋgitwo.
nowhere / persevere.E.fut must.E.fut only victory / because mention stop.E.fut / begin-be.E.not courage

The first sentence could also be translated with a more verbal formula: denatwo eraw kath ôspodôth wiwigo mimla ’the duty to protect it’, literally ‘the duty where we will protect it’. (Good syntactic practice, though— I had to specify more about how nominalizations work.)

I used nam ‘country’ in place of dawlonam ‘kingdom’ as the latter implies a foreign, human-ruled, therefore illegitimate realm. Denatwo ‘duty’ is also the word for ‘heaviness’.

[rotting bones]

For the record, I'm not opposed to the idea of using Sal's samples. I was just worried that translating dozens of prose stylists a tad too mechanically might lead to the conceptual categories of Dekhnami becoming similar to those of English.



This wasn't a lack of confidence in you, just general anxiety about the possibility as a hopeless fanboy. That's why I wasn't verbose about it until Sal called me out on the idea. Once again, I apologize.