Question on the Zone of Fire

[hwhatting]

Sauron, let's remember, took centuries just to build Barad-dur.

It bothers me that he managed to whip the place up again, without the ring, stronger than ever, in Bilbo's lifetime.

That's what you call a good learning curve.

[Salmoneus]

Sauron, let's remember, took centuries just to build Barad-dur.

It bothers me that he managed to whip the place up again, without the ring, stronger than ever, in Bilbo's lifetime.

Was it actually destroyed the first time? I always imagined it had simply been poorly maintained in his absence and had fallen into some disrepair, requiring a lengthy refurbishment and some minor renovations?

[Izambri]

Chronology.

c. II 1000 The construction of Barad-dûr begins.
c. II 1600 Barad-dûr is finished.
II 3441 Barad-dûr is destroyed after seven years of siege, following the victory of the Last Alliance in the Battle of Dagorlad. Despite this, the foundations of the tower were left in place.
III 2951 Rebuilding begins at Barad-dûr. It took a few decades, using the power of Sauron combined with workforce (Slaves? Orcs?), which used stone and mortar and, probably, lava from the Orodruin.
III 3019 Barad-dûr is definitively destroyed.

The fact that the foundations were left in place at the end of the Second Age was determinant for the faster reconstruction of the tower in the Third Age. Despite this, is still surprising 600 years of building versus a few decades of reconstruction.

[rotting bones]

JRRT surely thought of this, and I suspect his answer would be something like "two hobbits sneaking into Mordor by themselves are far less likely to be noticed than two hobbits being carried by large birds".

Distracting them with an army at the gates and then moving in on mounted eagles seems more feasible than two hobbits sneaking in alone. Honestly, even hurling the ring into the volcano with a giant catapult is much more likely to work than the plan they went with.

Also note that the Zone's effects correlate with intelligence-- the iliu are likely more affected by the Zone than humans, not less.

...which makes sense for a war machine deterrent how?

[zompist]

Also note that the Zone's effects correlate with intelligence-- the iliu are likely more affected by the Zone than humans, not less.

...which makes sense for a war machine deterrent how?

I'm not following the question. If you're referring to the war of machines, recall that the operators and targets were iliu and ktuvoks. Probably the machines could have crossed the Zone of Fire, but that's not where the enemies were.

[rotting bones]

I see, so they didn't have drones, etc.

PS. Of course, I'm only making sense if it was less of (say) a war for territory than two factions simply trying to exterminate each other.

PPS. "Probably the machines could have crossed the Zone of Fire, but that's not where the enemies were." I'm probably remembering things wrong again.

[brandrinn]

JRRT surely thought of this, and I suspect his answer would be something like "two hobbits sneaking into Mordor by themselves are far less likely to be noticed than two hobbits being carried by large birds".

Distracting them with an army at the gates and then moving in on mounted eagles seems more feasible than two hobbits sneaking in alone. Honestly, even hurling the ring into the volcano with a giant catapult is much more likely to work than the plan they went with.

I get so sick of this talk about the eagles. If you read The Hobbit, then you know why Frodo and Sam didn't ride in on eagles. It's because the eagles wouldn't do it. They wouldn't even transport Gandalf and his company over farms when he asked them to for fear of their safety. Why would they fly directly into Mordor?

[rotting bones]

Because otherwise, everybody dies or is enslaved? (I wanted to say more about this, but I forget why the eagles did help out in the end, in quite a hazardous environment at that) (As it is, I'm not altogether convinced by this either. LOTR is about shortsightedness regarding the dangers of Evil after all.)

[patiku]

Maybe the Zone acts on a willingness to commit or capacity for violence. Most humans are willing to kill for at least a few reasons and war machines, piloted or autonomous, are almost as dangerous. Maybe Gandhi could have crossed it with ease with the pacifist ancestors of the inhabitants of Bekkai (if anyone starts talking about prehistoric warfare I will kill them). Also, I like the idea of dead robots standing idle out in the desert.

[Mornche Geddick]

I like the idea of dead robots standing idle out in the desert.

So do I. Not that Sokol Rälom saw any, but was he in any condition to notice?

[dhok]

But if it correlates with intelligence, why on earth is it barren rock? It's not like jungle plants have any sort of consciousness...

[patiku]

If the effects of the Zone are proportional to intelligence then why don't plants thrive there?

[zompist]

Probably the Powers that created the Zone targeted intelligence, but a side effect was some impact on all life. The closer something is to the Thinking Kinds, the more effect the Zone has; and plants are closer than rocks.

[patiku]

Powers created it on their own, or were they prompted by humans? I'd assumed it was the ktuvoks using some currently-unknown method to thwart ilii technological superiority. Would it be possible a human serve a ktuvok and a Power at the same time? Either way, it seems like magicians don't figure into history in very many instances, so an action of this magnitude would mean that the nature of prehistoric wizards was vastly different from historic ones.

[zompist]

We don't have non-mythological accounts, but see the account in the Count of Years. In effect it was a plot of the evil Powers, countered by the good Powers and the iliu.

Certainly no human wizard has ever convinced the Powers to do anything on this scale. (Utu is sometimes said to have been planning something very large-scale, but whatever it was, it was a failure.)

(Which may well be a spoiler for a future novel.

[Karavinka]

Topic seems to be dormant, but still on the first page.

Reading the Historical Atlas of Almea, I got an impression that the Zone may be breached in a few centuries, if not less... Bekkayin states have been visited by the southerners, after all, and with the faster, larger and more reliable ocean-going ships, it might not take too long for Lebiscuri or Curym to be populated by Ereleans. I imagine something like the United States rising in Lebiscuri by 4000 Z.E. (At the expense of...er..ktuvoks? Now I can sympathize with them. Maybe it's the immigrants who will exploit the ktuvok psychic powers..neolithic ktuvoks probably won't be able to resist riflemen too easily.)

And maybe I'm too prone to imagine things to fill in the blanks, but given the Qing-Verduria contact mentioned in the secret dictionary, the only person who would ever initiate such a contact seems to be Utu. Maybe he got curious about Elenicoi and tried to reach their homeland.