Question on the Zone of Fire

[bulbaquil]

1. What technology would be needed to pass through it reliably? Steamships (keeping as many people as possible belowdecks until the crossing is complete)? Aircraft? Space travel? A bunch of hit dice, a high fortitude save modifier, some equipment straight out of Sandstorm, and plenty of high rolls?

2. What is the actual temperature of the Zone of Fire (or the effective temperature thereof as it applies to living things)?

3. The Almeopedia states that "[m]ost naval attempts [to cross it] have found that the burning effects Rälom describe simply occur faster." Is that meant to imply that the faster the speed at which you attempt to go through the zone, the faster its magic takes effect?

[Civil War Bugle]

1. What technology would be needed to pass through it reliably? Steamships (keeping as many people as possible belowdecks until the crossing is complete)? Aircraft? Space travel? A bunch of hit dice, a high fortitude save modifier, some equipment straight out of Sandstorm, and plenty of high rolls?

I think I have seen references to people crossing successfully so I would guess steamships, maybe, unless magic causes the heat to be proportional to the technology to keep people out.

[Arzena]

The illiu seemed to have little difficulty crossing the Zone on whale-back. But then again, they were probably shielded from the thermal effects of the Zone by the ocean or had sufficient technology to protect themselves.

[con quesa]

Come to think of it, what are the effects of the Zone on an Iliu walking along the continental shelf across the Zone?

[zompist]

I think most of the questions are answered if you carefully read the Almeopedia article. I've tried to make it clear that it is not a physical phenomenon but a magical one-- so really questions about temperature somewhat miss the point.

The Zone certainly extends along the continental shelf; the iliu don't get across by simply swimming over. Also note that the Zone's effects correlate with intelligence-- the iliu are likely more affected by the Zone than humans, not less.

I've tended to assume that a modern steamship (e.g. traveling at ~ 30 knots) might get through, but it wouldn't be pleasant. An airplane would be a better bet. (After all, a jet could get through the Zone in about four minutes, not leaving much time for the magic to operate.)

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

the iliu are likely more affected by the Zone than humans, not less.

This implies that, with your account, the one who went the furthest was actually the most stupid

[patiku]

If the effects of the Zone are proportional to intelligence then why don't plants thrive there? They are intellectually inferior to bugs and whatnot who are themselves unaffected, so they should be doing fine.

Also, what would happen to a computer in there?

[Pthagnar]

what about spiritual intelligences

[bulbaquil]

If the effects of the Zone are proportional to intelligence then why don't plants thrive there? They are intellectually inferior to bugs and whatnot who are themselves unaffected, so they should be doing fine.

If I had to hazard a speculative guess, I'd say it's probably because whoever cast the magic to create the Zone wanted it to appear forbidding as well as actually be forbidding. Few biomes are more forbidding than a completely barren desert.

(But that's just my thoughts on it. I could be totally off base.)

[linguofreak]

I think most of the questions are answered if you carefully read the Almeopedia article. I've tried to make it clear that it is not a physical phenomenon but a magical one-- so really questions about temperature somewhat miss the point.

Yes, but perhaps you have not clarified the nature of that magic well enough. "Magic" could mean "the temperature of the Zone is increased by N degrees without any obvious heat source", or it could mean "the skin temperatures of living beings within the zone matching certain criteria are increased by N degrees without any obvious heat source", or it could mean "certain chemical reactions proceed as if the temperature were N degrees higher without any actual rise in temperature", or any number of other things.

[Mashmakhan]

I think what zompist was trying to say is that he would rather not go into any specifics I find it perfectly excusable, actually, since that is basically all magic really is. Anything that you can't - or don't want to - explain in any other way might as well be magic.

[zompist]

I think most of the questions are answered if you carefully read the Almeopedia article. I've tried to make it clear that it is not a physical phenomenon but a magical one-- so really questions about temperature somewhat miss the point.

Yes, but perhaps you have not clarified the nature of that magic well enough. "Magic" could mean "the temperature of the Zone is increased by N degrees without any obvious heat source", or it could mean "the skin temperatures of living beings within the zone matching certain criteria are increased by N degrees without any obvious heat source", or it could mean "certain chemical reactions proceed as if the temperature were N degrees higher without any actual rise in temperature", or any number of other things.

I hate to be cranky, but this is why the article has an extensive narrative description, and that rules out at least two of your three descriptions.

[zompist]

the iliu are likely more affected by the Zone than humans, not less.

This implies that, with your account, the one who went the furthest was actually the most stupid

Or the most determined. Unless that's the same thing.

Computers: we don't know as no one's built one on Almea. For what it's worth there is some mythological evidence here: the War of Machines in the Count of Years is stated to be restricted to the north of Almea due to the Zone of Fire... apparently those machines couldn't cross it.

Purely spiritual beings: the vyoži meet this definition; magicians usually claim that they are immune to the Zone (in fact this is the basis for their claim to be able to traverse it themselves-- presumably the Powers somehow tote them along).

[Pthagnar]

what if i were a distributed group mind, like a swarm of cranium rats or something but even stupider like cranium ants and i disperse myself until i reach the other side

what THEN

[patiku]

That wouldn't be any different from being carried across on a boat or w/e except for the part where you're turned into a bunch of ants. Unless the swarm is still sentient within the Zone, in which case I think they would still be affected.

[Pthagnar]

but we're not sentient. we're just a bunch of mentalities as clever as ants. put us together in the right way, then we are talking, but not this way!!

[patiku]

Listen, this is a real physical phenomenon, you can't go around looking to beat the system by exploiting technicalities like an orthodox Jew. I mean I guess you can try to get philosophical with the thing but you're not gonna win.

Now that that's cleared up, what about someone who is brain dead?

[Pthagnar]

and what of information-theoretic death in such transactions??

[Aurora Rossa]

Listen, this is a real physical phenomenon, you can't go around looking to beat the system by exploiting technicalities like an orthodox Jew. I mean I guess you can try to get philosophical with the thing but you're not gonna win.

It's not exploiting technicalities, but merely testing the rules of the phenomenon. I think pthag raises some reasonable questions on this.

[zompist]

The general answer to entities never seen on Almea is "who knows?"

However, magic requires an intelligent entity to wield, and Cuzeian mythology suggests a purpose— to create a barrier between the hemispheres to prevent war from spreading across the equator. So it could be assumed that quirky methods will be prevented only if they have military potential. Ferrying brain-dead people across the Zone wouldn't seem to be very useful, so it's likely the Zone doesn't prevent it.

[Pthagnar]

However, magic requires an intelligent entity to wield, and Cuzeian mythology suggests a purpose— to create a barrier between the hemispheres to prevent war from spreading across the equator. So it could be assumed that quirky methods will be prevented only if they have military potential. Ferrying brain-dead people across the Zone wouldn't seem to be very useful, so it's likely the Zone doesn't prevent it.

but an intelligence that can make itself reversibly stupid when it is smart to do so *does* seem like it would be very useful! Kenotic warfare!!

[bulbaquil]

However, magic requires an intelligent entity to wield, and Cuzeian mythology suggests a purpose— to create a barrier between the hemispheres to prevent war from spreading across the equator. So it could be assumed that quirky methods will be prevented only if they have military potential. Ferrying brain-dead people across the Zone wouldn't seem to be very useful, so it's likely the Zone doesn't prevent it.

but an intelligence that can make itself reversibly stupid when it is smart to do so *does* seem like it would be very useful! Kenotic warfare!!

In which case the Zone would probably prevent its passage.

It's magic, not physics. It doesn't have to be consistent and work the same way every time. Whatever rules it follows are subject to change.

[Mornche Geddick]

Dr Faustus in the 16th century was said to have fetched ripe grapes in dead winter from the southern hemisphere by magical means. What would happen if an Almean magician tried something similar? Would the grapes be unaffected by the zone or would they arrive as raisins? More generally, can a magician fetch objects across the zone, or does the magic prevent that as well?

[Pthagnar]

It's magic, not physics. It doesn't have to be consistent and work the same way every time. Whatever rules it follows are subject to change.

sure thing, rosenfelder, IF THAT IS YOUR REAL NAME

[patiku]

How far into space does the Zone extend? (I am assuming that it goes into space because if you're advanced enough for a robot war you probably have airplanes (but then, if you have airplanes, then why don't they just pack a fleet with soldiers and zoom through?))