How did you do it?

Questions or discussions about Almea or Verduria-- also the Incatena. Also good for postings in Almean languages.
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SlayerXX33398
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How did you do it?

Post by SlayerXX33398 »

Mark,

I would LOVE to know how you came up with Verdurian and the other Eastern languages before deriving Proto-Eastern, since you said you worked backwards. Yet to me it seems impossible to create a multitude of languages that are all related without having done the Proto-Language first, but it also seems impossible to create a protolang based off of one language. I'm asking this mainly because I started down the same path, having started a language before actually coming up with the protolang, but I love this one way too much. Anyway, I'd love to know how you came up with Proto-Eastern, thanks in advance, and if you can't tell me, then, oh well.

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So Haleza Grise
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Re: How did you do it?

Post by So Haleza Grise »

Hi Slayer,

(Zompist can amend/correct the details of this I'm sure)

Mark created Verdurian using vocabulary and grammar from a variety of European languages, including Russian, German, Spanish, Esperanto and French, revising the language as he went along. He then created Cadhinor by working backwards from Verdurian - giving it a more 'latinate' feel. As a result of creating Cadhinor he had to make some modifications to Verdurian - you can see this page for examples of how much it changed.

He then performed the same process with Cadhinor to get proto-Eastern. Then, he could work forwards to create Cuezi, Axunashin, etc.

To create an ancestor language, you need:

1.An idea of what the parent language was like - was it more inflecting or more isolating than the daughter language? Was its sound system more complicated? What sounds did it have that the daughter language lost? Mark wanted Cadhinor to have a Neuter gender, on the model of Indo-European languages, so he had to work out where it went in Verdurian (the answer: it merged into the masculine)
2. Some knowledge of historical linguistics - what vocabulary is likely to be original vs. what is likely to be borrowed; what sound changes are feasible; how sound changes create irregularity while analogy erases irregularity and creates new patterns.

When you have those two things, you can spot patterns in your language - for example, it was possible to create the Cadhinor/proto-Eastern verbal systems by having a look at the Verdurian verbal systems and thinking about their underlying logic. If you're smart, you can do some of this ahead of time, by thinking about the underlying patterns and where they might have come from at the time you create the system to begin with.

A good place to start "reconstructing" your parent language is with core vocabulary arranged in a set, like the pronoun or numeral system; what could have happened to your language that created the current system?
Duxirti petivevoumu tinaya to tiei šuniš muruvax ulivatimi naya to šizeni.

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Re: How did you do it?

Post by zompist »

To what SHG says, I should add that I used the Sound Change Applier as I would in moving forward. This ensures that you have consistent sound changes.

The main difference is, it's not deterministic. Going forward, I create a sound change and that automatically generates a whole lexicon... if I don't like the results I change the SCA rules. Going backwards, there are normally a number of ways a particular word can be generated. Knowing the current rules, I'd think of a bunch of possible etymons, use the SCA to make sure they generated the right form, and pick the one I liked best.

So, I had to modify the proposed etymons, the rules, and even the Verdurian output words to make a consistent parent-daughter relationship. There are still a couple dozen Verdurian words where I couldn't work out an etymon I liked.

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Re: How did you do it?

Post by CaesarVincens »

Didn't you also change parts of Verdurian (and its sisters and cousins) to better derive from Cadinor and Proto-eastern, Zompist?

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Re: How did you do it?

Post by zompist »

Yes, that's what I said just above.

Only Verdurian really had to be changed to a large degree, as none of the other languages had been published.

The worst bit is really that it messed with my memory of my own language... actually writing any Verdurian I'd have to check constantly in the dictionary to make sure I wasn't using a deprecated form.

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