Dheknami

[cntrational]

It's out, holy shit!

[KathTheDragon]

A comment on the numbers: shouldn't the last column be 8^x rather than x^8?

Edit: Same with the decimals.

[Dē Graut Bʉr]

The top of the page says © 2010 by Mark Rosenfelder. Shouldn't that be 2014?

[CaesarVincens]

The top of the page says © 2010 by Mark Rosenfelder. Shouldn't that be 2014?

Not if he wrote it in 2010 (as his blog indicates).

Also, I noticed that the female names lose bolding after the first name.

[Thomas Winwood]

Also, all the Almeopedia links are old-style with index.php, so they redirect to the front page.

[WeepingElf]

And why are /ts/ and /dz/ listed under "palatal"? Does this have historical reasons?

[zompist]

OK, these problems should be fixed; also I noticed that I'd added some stuff to the Word version that never made it to the html, so there are some minor additions and clarifications.

[Thomas Winwood]

The prefixes wi- shê- me- voice the following consonant(s). Note that this merges the D and E forms, and changes the A form

You mean the B form, since Dhekhnami doesn't have A forms.

Can the -in imperative be used with an E form? If so, what connotation would that have?

I'm guessing panṫudêth fifty is supposed to be panthudêth - ṫ isn't in your transcription for Dhekhnami.

I think there's a little explanatory text missing - the list of clausal conjunctions leads straight into an example sentence for razh.

The Virtual Verduria page still says Dhekhnami isn't here yet; also the notice on the main page disappeared.

---

The archaising nature of the Gelalhat scripture suggests that there might be a small cottage industry of commentaries explaining or reinterpreting parts.

[zompist]

You can't use -in with the E forms. (It derives from the Munkhâshi request affix -en, which was also restricted to superiors.)

Other problems fixed, except that this

The Virtual Verduria page still says Dhekhnami isn't here yet; also the notice on the main page disappeared.

is probably a cacheing problem in your browser— try a shift-reload.

[Arkasas]

Is this a sign of the apocalypse? Should we be scared?

Or should we rejoice that it has finally appeared?

[So Haleza Grise]

This is exciting! I was wondering whether Dhekhnami would be totally different to Munkhashi or similar - it's kind of similar while still being different in subtle ways, and more "urbane."

Some questions and corrections:
Noun plurals: "For words beginning with a single consonant (including the affricates ts dz tl dl ch j), the plural is formed as in Munkhâshi: duplicate the first syllable." This doesn't appear to apply to sakh in the examples though. An irregularity? Similarly I would have thought the plural of iwniso should be wiwniso but this must also be an irregularity.

"The suffixes -ba and -dô (after voiced consonants, -pa and -tô)" < I think this is meant to be unvoiced consonants.

"As in Munkhâshi, negative sentences are formed by negating the verb and always use singular E forms." This doesn't appear to be the case in the examples, unless I am missing something?

As well as that, I think
Thewaf godat shujyoshno.
eat.A ktuvok court-man
The ktuvok ate the lawyer." should really be B-form.

I think that the two names, Čidhiw and Čighiw should have different diacritics in them?

[Pole, the]

Is Dheknami a cheap alternative to Dothraki?

[So Haleza Grise]

I'm interested in the glimpse we have of Dhekhnami political theory - do they bother to classify human governments by type, or are they all the same?

Have they ever made any contact with Arcel?

What are the Dhekhnami names for Xurno, Tzhuro, Carhinno?

Is Dheknami a cheap alternative to Dothraki?

Dhekhnami is older than Dothraki I think, at least in parts. Also, it's the language of a major civilised state, not nomads. As for "cheap," well to be honest I am not all that impressed with Dothraki as a conlang - mainly because I think its phonology isn't distinctive enough, but that's probably not David Petersen's fault, it has to do with Martin's inability to stick to any kind of consistent plan in coining names and phrases. I guess I don't see the need for it to have a vaguely IE case system; there are other models out there.

[Salmoneus]

I'm interested in the glimpse we have of Dhekhnami political theory - do they bother to classify human governments by type, or are they all the same?

Have they ever made any contact with Arcel?

What are the Dhekhnami names for Xurno, Tzhuro, Carhinno?

Is Dheknami a cheap alternative to Dothraki?

Dhekhnami is older than Dothraki I think, at least in parts. Also, it's the language of a major civilised state, not nomads. As for "cheap," well to be honest I am not all that impressed with Dothraki as a conlang - mainly because I think its phonology isn't distinctive enough, but that's probably not David Petersen's fault, it has to do with Martin's inability to stick to any kind of consistent plan in coining names and phrases. I guess I don't see the need for it to have a vaguely IE case system; there are other models out there.

In terms of restrictions from the text, there's only maybe half a dozen Dothraki words in the books iirc, and many of them are transparently related (khal/khaleesi, khalasar)

[So Haleza Grise]

In terms of restrictions from the text, there's only maybe half a dozen Dothraki words in the books iirc, and many of them are transparently related (khal/khaleesi, khalasar)

I thought there were a couple of sentences? Maybe I am misrembering. Certainly there were a few names.

[zompist]

I haven't read the books, but I have the materials LCS provided for its contest, which include all the Dothraki words Martin invented. There are roughly two dozen words, including names, as well as one sentence.

There's enough corpus to set out a phonological inventory, which is pretty much the Standard Fantasy Phonology, with the noobism of using h all over (including posers like mh and jh), and using both c and k. It's actually a fair puzzle to try to get something reasonable out of it. And of course the language had to be pronounced by actual actors, so straying far from English wasn't such a good idea.

The one sentence, as well as the attempts of Dothraki speakers to speak Common, provide a lot of restrictions as well. It would have been difficult to take the language in any very exotic directions.

(I haven't seen Peterson's grammar, so I really don't know what he came up with.)

(Edit: stupid Mac insists on changing "noobism" to "niobium".)

[zompist]

Made some corrections/clarifications.

There's a lot of irregularity in the plurals— often looking at the Munkhâshi term will help. E.g. iwniso / niwniso makes more sense of you think of inwisho / ininwisho.

A Tžuro is a shôklano ('desert-man'); a Carhinno or any Qarau is a bedhôthno ('naked man'). I haven't got a word for Xurno... got to update the original Word file before adding words.

They would certainly analyze human governments, in order to better predict their actions and deal with them. They aren't particularly impressed by absolute monarchies, though they find them easier to interact with. (As a rule of thumb, they're not very ideological, so they can be pretty hard-headed in analyzing their neighbors. Very few human societies trouble the Dhekhnami belief that ktuvoks rule humans better than humans do.)

You may recall that the ktuvoks actually invaded Arcél! Certainly they would remember the episode, and Dhekhnam undoubtedly sends ships there. Ktuvok empires don't easily lend themselves to a colonial system, however— they're geared up to conquer large nearby swaths of territory, not small far-off bits.

[Ketumak]

Good to see Dheknami's out, I shall go take a look.

@Zompist: what's next in the work plan? Not trying to hassle, just curious.

[Mornche Geddick]

And we have the Jippirasti alphabet too, at no extra charge!

[zompist]

That's actually been out for awhile: http://www.almeopedia.com/Tžuro_language

(Cut and paste the URL; phpbb barfs at the ž.)

[Pole, the]

That's actually been out for awhile: http://www.almeopedia.com/T%C5%BEuro_language

Ftfy.

[BGMan]

Nice.

What strikes me is how conservative Dhekhnami is; it does have a slew of new sounds, but it still looks much closer to Munkhashi than, say, Verdurian does to Cadhinor. I do have one correction in that area for you Zompist: where you say "Besides the mostly-allophones mentioned, it’s innovated s z gh y", you skipped f v. You do mention later that p still mutates to w rather than f, but I don't think it would hurt to state this in the Phonology section instead, possibly after mentioning where you discuss f and v being introduced, as being due to consistency with Munkhâshi.

(Also, I'm curious as to why muchye is translated as "coyote", instead of "jackal". The word "jackal" really is an insult in English, and seems to, at least IMO, better capture how Dhekhnami might think of Verdurians.)

The writing system is okay too, although I wouldn't be surprised if they don't eventually come out with a horizontal form like Chinese and Japanese did, bowing to European printing methods.

I'd be interested in seeing what Sarroc is like next. I understand the other languages in Dhekhnam have rank distinctions too.

Amusingly enough, I think Portuguese has (or at least had historically) three rank distinctions very similar to Dhekhnami, at least in the pronouns: o senhor, você, and tu (plural: os senhores, vocês, and vós). Although that could have been done in English too, if you think about it, by using a person's rank or title of respect as a B form ("Your Grace" or "his Lordship"), "you" as a D form, and "thou" as the E form, although unlike Portuguese this wouldn't have full singular vs. plural distinction. (As a corollary, when Munkhashi speak about an iliu, I'd capture the E form convention by translating that into English as "it"; after all, E forms are used for inanimate objects.)

[So Haleza Grise]

The difference of course being that rank applies in all persons in Dhekhnami, not just the second as in Portuguese.

[Civil War Bugle]

(Also, I'm curious as to why muchye is translated as "coyote", instead of "jackal". The word "jackal" really is an insult in English, and seems to, at least IMO, better capture how Dhekhnami might think of Verdurians.)

Does Almea have jackals? (Maybe they do, I haven't checked.) But I recall seeing that the coyote is considered a cool animal in Eretald but has the negative connotations of evil animals like jackals in other areas like Dhekhnam (while still being a coyote instead of a jackal. Darn those coyotes coming in and preying on our livestock.)

[bulbaquil]

My guess on this is that muchye refers to the same animal Verdurian bardinó does, and bardinó is translated coyote.