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PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:43 am 
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Cu tas to zende šizenačum pel japisi to zenayc li zimi jaup dzus to mnoruc na šweriju ceš ze.
—Dogerač
That 1p OBV teach.INF can-not.1p-PRES but kid.PL OBV know.3p-PRES and woman.PL head behind OBV wear SUBORDINATOR principle this be.3s-PRES

This is a heavy sentence.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:37 am 
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By killing me, you hope to stop me; but you will only end me. I am a movement that has extended sixty years and up and down Niormen, and you have control only over its last few days. Sharp as your blades are, they cannot cut the past. I have already happened.

Myes i jese jidil i ešreac denjidzayc pel, myes cu i tas na deuc. Syu cu rau li petri Niormen ray semudeš sum dmuro dmaurij na reátuc peyga, myes ir tagri li bip dim neyo bunji vac šačuc. Mir eyki isauri šuosayc pel, ci oraup tey šizenačuc. Syu ci idzum oraej.

Bukameša's taunt to his judges. It was an awesome back translation to do. I like how I was able to use the conjuction jidil to express a cause-consequence within a wish. Here's the litteral translation :

"You hope to kill me to stop me, but you will only make me stop doing things. I am a movement that has lasted during 60 years in upper and lower Niormen, but you have no control whatsoever beyond my last few days. Your sword-edges may be sharp, but they cannot cut this past. I have already happened."

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:26 am 
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Note about Xurnese; it's hard to say if it is time concordant or not. Only small notes on past perfect and reported speech seems to lead to the conclusion that time concordance is a feature of Xurnese.

(Indirect speech in Japanese is not time concordant, for instance.)

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:54 pm 
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The more I immerse myself into Endajué's thought process, the more, to me, it makes sense. I don't mean the various superstitions of the people or even those of the Dzuséy. Frankly, as I am now accostumed to say, they are full of beriludzú, illusions (in French, I translated enbuements, to copy the source and avoid any side meaning).

I mean the whole mindset where the only common credo to all of Endajué is "We are Diverse, we are Together, we all Dance together, and we dance following a Path." As long as you only stick to that, what is left is a constant requestionning of your own beliefs. The credo does not make a complete belief system, and it certainly does not pinpoint the right way. But it reminds you to always question yourself, as in science we question all theories all the time to make them clearer. And, as time and our experiences go by, we can deepen our understanding and change our beliefs accordingly.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 5:25 am 
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Reading this thread I get the impression Zomp's accidentally founded a new religion!


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 7:30 am 
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Mornche Geddick wrote:
Reading this thread I get the impression Zomp's accidentally founded a new religion!


He might, though it was not his intention. At least, he's not like another author that I shall not name, quite the opposite.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:10 am 
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I could imagine myself becoming an Irreanist. I'd want access to Irrean's books, though, so that if I did join up, I could point to it when people ask about my religious activity.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:03 pm 
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Civil War Bugle wrote:
I could imagine myself becoming an Irreanist. I'd want access to Irrean's books, though, so that if I did join up, I could point to it when people ask about my religious activity.


I thought about that too at one point, but as the Iliî say about Irreanism : it is not incorrect, but it is incomplete.

For a atheist like me that can only think of most religions as imagined things anyway, I shouldn't even make a distinction between a religion created centuries before and one created now. While I do say I am a Jivirc or, dare I, Beylusu, it still kind of feels weird. I could actually meet the religion's founder, if I were not ten megameters away, and I do not know if the founder believes it or not (even in my slightly less overilaup way), and I would suppose the second. It's a weird feeling.

Anyways, gotta go, time for my kindergartens. :p

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:20 am 
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It does seem a bit counter-intuitive, but just as we want the most modern scientific theories, perhaps we should also choose the most modern belief systems. After all, these should be compatible with (or at least aware of) the latest science and the latest philosophical and anthropological insights.

An objection might be that belief systems mature over time-- presumably, it takes a good deal of effort to work out all the implications, plug the holes, answer unbelievers' objections. (On the other hand, we'd surely want some empirical research on how much such improvement there is, and whether it balances the general process of getting out-of-date in our information-rich age.)

(Of course, belief systems are often invented by scoundrels. We could also use a well-defined index of scoundreldom. However, as a first approximation, I'd suggest that this correlates with the acreage of the founder's cult compound, and I'd helpfully add that mine is quite small.)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:45 am 
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zompist wrote:
It does seem a bit counter-intuitive, but just as we want the most modern scientific theories, perhaps we should also choose the most modern belief systems. After all, these should be compatible with (or at least aware of) the latest science and the latest philosophical and anthropological insights.


Well, as shown in the above posts, I do not think it is counter-intuitive, quite the opposite; but selling me Endajué or any such modern-style religion was not a problem.

Quote:
An objection might be that belief systems mature over time-- presumably, it takes a good deal of effort to work out all the implications, plug the holes, answer unbelievers' objections. (On the other hand, we'd surely want some empirical research on how much such improvement there is, and whether it balances the general process of getting out-of-date in our information-rich age.)
]

Belief systems do evolve, but Holy Books do not. Compare Endajué, where anything said by a Dzusey is worth gold in terms of insight, and Irreanism, where while Mornio is highly regarded any story is worth a good learning, to Eledhat (and Christianity), where the canon is well defined and triffles are what's left for evoluton, and Jippirasti, where the only common canon is the Book of Babur and only that. Eledhat had to adapt itself or it would have died out; so did Jippirasti when it invaded Skouras and later Arcel, but Endajué and Irreanism won't hesitate to evolve.

For Earth Religions, we unfortunately don't have many Irreanist or Endajué-like religions to compare. Just look at how Christianism pretends to go beyond Judaism, Islam over Christianism and Bahaiism over Islam. Endajué might have needed a couple of hard illusions to get rid of (Emperors, Science and probably many more), but is has the potential within it to change pretty much any belief that may have occured. Dzuséy answer to each other, but not in a hierarchical way; they answer to each other in a scientific way : they call bullshit on the illusions of their collegues, and these collegues will call bullshit on the illusions of their peers. Basically, they build over each other. It stays Endajué because Endajué is pretty much nothing, all that is left is simply philosophical and anthropological insights Dzuséy slowly uncover, getting rid of more beriludo.

Quote:
(Of course, belief systems are often invented by scoundrels. We could also use a well-defined index of scoundreldom. However, as a first approximation, I'd suggest that this correlates with the acreage of the founder's cult compound, and I'd helpfully add that mine is quite small.)


We can also go with the amount of money I am giving you regarding Endajué. Which is pretty much nothing.

Except that I do hope you'll still look at me when you'll get by to writing your novel, so I can enjoy it and, in the same time, see if your Endajuésu characters are really going in an Endajué mindset. 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:01 pm 
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Also, for those who would like an insider's view of Endajué, I have one, but only in French at the moment. I am planning an English translation shortly however.

http://daneydzaus.blogspot.jp/p/cest-to ... -sait.html

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:32 pm 
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Yiuel Raumbesrairc wrote:
Also, for those who would like an insider's view of Endajué, I have one, but only in French at the moment. I am planning an English translation shortly however.

http://daneydzaus.blogspot.jp/p/cest-to ... -sait.html
in what sense are you an "insider" to a religion practiced by fictional amphibian humanoids?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:19 pm 
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one would have to guess it's because he's writing the perspective of an equally fictitious narrator who's a practitioner of said religion?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:26 am 
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if that were the case then i'd still be doubtful in calling it an insider's narrative, because no, you're an outsider pretending to be an insider. if we take what you say, we're *pretending* it's an insider's narrative, but it isn't really -- if i wrote an article where i pretend to be a jew and talk about what judaism means to me, this doesn't make it the product of an insider no matter how much i crib details from actual jews. but it doesn't look like it is that sort of thing anyway. See, his description, after the introduction begins:
Yiuel wrote:
Dans le monde créé par Mark Rosenfelder, Almea, il y a placé une civilisation, Assunaie. C'est une civilisation qui, en terme technologique, ressemble beaucoup à la Mésopotamie de l'âge du bronze, puis de l'âge du fer.
and virtual verduria is described as being in english, the "langue maternelle de l'auteur" although I suppose the author is zompist, not yiuel. not that zompist is an insider particularly, either. he follows a similar, but different, religion.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Kereb wrote:
one would have to guess it's because he's writing the perspective of an equally fictitious narrator who's a practitioner of said religion?


Does it have to be that convoluted? I'm simply writing from my own point of view, using my understanding (and actual practice) of what I think to be Endajué.
1. It's not because some story is fictional that you can't learn from it; while the whole origin part is fictional, the whole thinking part is beyond fictional or reality; it's useful, thoughtful and fun.
2. I did receive quite clear words that I understood what zompist meant really well. (See the page, which actually quotes a quote of this very thread.)
3. Because of both my understanding and my own pratice, I believe I can offer an "insider's view". I don't mean an insider's view of Xurnese culture or even 3480-year Xurnese religion: while I do believe I understand Xurnese culture well enough, I am not Xurnese and do not intend to become one, and most of what's written in the Endajué page I consider to be still fully loaded of beriludzu, so I am not an Endajuesu in that sense. I am meaning someone who took Endajué's basic principles to the heart and is living with it.

Take Christianity, and it isn't much different. The only thing is that we suppose what is written in the canon and deuterocanon to be real (or mostly so), not fictional. Do Christians really know what the Christ meant? Some people are entirely sure of it, some people think they do, and others just follow the lead. But do they really? And yet, for Catholics, the Pope says he's an insider, as are pretty much all the priests. Islam and Judaism work pretty much the same way. My friend practices a kind of Buddhism that tends to go the same way.

But I am not an Endajué priest; there is nothing to worship, and there is practically nothing completely "true" in the faith sense. There is no sense in saying that you understand the One; you haven't, you don't and... you won't. I haven't, I don't and never will. I'm just one individual dude who happens to have fun with the Endajué principles and has learned to live with them. That's my insider's view: my experience of it, which will be completely different of what zompist described, what in-world Endajuesú would think, and what anyone else has. Whether I am a Swerchirc, a Jivirc, a Beylusu or a Dzusey I cannot know, but the only difference between the four levels are simply one of understanding (and related to the current level of understanding about the world), not one of holiness.

You're a Dzusey not because you're holy; you're dzusey because you understand things more deeply, with less beriludzu than most. And the Swerchirc is one that is not aware of anything beyond his own illusions. The Jivirc has catched the idea of having illusions, and the Beylusu is in the process of learning how to doubt his own illusions; I am, I believe, at that last level.

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Last edited by Yiuel Raumbesrairc on Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:38 pm 
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But I am not an Endajué priest; there is nothing to worship, and there is practically nothing completely "true" in the faith sense. There is no sense in saying that you understand the One; you haven't, you don't and... you won't. I haven't, I don't and never will. I'm just one individual dude who happens to have fun with the Endajué principles and has learned to live with them. That's my insider's view: my experience of it, which will be completely different of what zompist described, what in-world Endajuesú would think, and what anyone else has.
then what's the difference in saying it is specifically for somebody who wants "an insider's view" if there's nothing particularly to be inside of and you're not particularly inside it anyway, just somebody who is having fun thinking stuff?

ne: like, "insider/outsider narrative" doesn't imply "good/bad" "interesting/boring" "worthwhile/useless". a book called something like "I WAS HITLER'S INSURANCE BROKER!" can quite fairly be called an "insider narrative" but is probably boring.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:49 pm 
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Pthagnar wrote:
then what's the difference in saying it is specifically for somebody who wants "an insider's view" if there's nothing particularly to be inside of and you're not particularly inside it anyway, just somebody who is having fun thinking stuff?


There is something particular about it; the thought process. And I have fun with, sure, but I actually use it. That's the "insider" view.

Send a Quran out in space, have it found by some extraterrestrial culture, make it sure that it is written in the extra-terrestrial language. If you have one who finds it, reads it, and believes it is so full of insights that he wants to live by it, would he be a Muslim, or not?

If he is, I am as much an Endajuésu; if he is not, the Quran itself isn't sufficient enough to be Muslim and the whole Islam credo falls apart. And if you believe he is in between being and being not, you're actually overdiscriminating and underdiscriminating; he is Muslim, but of no particular Earth school, or maybe one could say his own school. In that sense, I am an Endajuésu, but of a thought school that is completely foreign to Almea. It doesn't make me less Endajuésu, it makes me not part of the Xurnese version of Endajué.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:58 pm 
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I think Yiuel is being clear about what he means: he's an insider because he's "someone who took Endajué's basic principles to the heart and is living with it". That is, he accepts the principles of the belief system and tries to apply them.

He's not an insider in the sense that he lives in Xurno, has an official position in a dzusnar, or is studying with a beylusu. If Endajué were like Judaism, that might be a big deal. But it's much more like, say, Taoism, a belief system that does not feel it important to issue membership cards.

(Which isn't to say that Endajué, in-world, never thought about boundaries at all. It did when distinguishing itself from Mešaism, and at times in competing with Bezuxau.)

(Also, in Xurno he'd be expected to find a mentor, but when the nearest dzusnar is across a trans-dimensional portal, we can cut Yiuel some slack.)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:31 pm 
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zompist wrote:
(Which isn't to say that Endajué, in-world, never thought about boundaries at all. It did when distinguishing itself from Mešaism, and at times in competing with Bezuxau.)


Which is why I said Endajué is Atheist in the opposite way of Dawkins'; they just said that what the Meshaist said was bullshit, nothing else really; and as for Bezuxau, which I am definitely not a believer, it is for some levels of beriludo difficult to explain in a short answer.

zompist wrote:
(Also, in Xurno he'd be expected to find a mentor, but when the nearest dzusnar is across a trans-dimensional portal, we can cut Yiuel some slack.)


Short of a Dzusnar, I'm using the next best things : you, and the Universe (because that is what we're supposed to try to grasp with Endajué anyway, and looking at the Universe cannot be a bad thing).

Anyays the Keshaup Dzuséy didn't have mentors either (... no comment...), it had to start somewhere; someone somewhere dusted the right spot (the Keshaup Dzuséy), and we're dusting more and more.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:34 pm 
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"Are they us or them?" is a separate question from "Is what we are saying true?". Whether or not the lizard men are muslims is a question for muslims to answer, and probably end up disagreeing over.

Yiuel Raumbesrairc wrote:
if he is not, the Quran itself isn't sufficient enough to be Muslim and the whole Islam credo falls apart.
this is the correct answer. I don't see that stories that are associated with the religion inspired by the Koran that the reptoid inhabitants of Lacerta Prime come up with *do* give us any special "insider" insight into what the anthropoid inhabitants of Sol Tertius who call themselves Muslims practice. The story may be interesting, and depending on what sort of religion the lizards set up, may or may not be an "insider narrative" of some form of Lizlam.

now *i* don't mind this consequence because if you are correct, and the choice is between "people are wrong when they say that reception of the text of the Koran and submitting to Allah as stipulated in the book is sufficient to be Muslim" and "insider narratives of islam differ from outsider ones", i find it an easy choice to make since I am not really invested in the idea of holding the Ummah together with the one book, even over cosmic distances, involving space aliens with unknown psychologies -- although muslims may well disagree, which is perhaps more relevant to deciding whether or not such and such a narrative is "insider" than what I, some dumb infidel, has to say on the matter.

---

But okay, you picked the other answer [which is weird since why do you care about whether or not the revelation of the koran has that power but never mind], but you give the example of Taoists [although even there there is a distinction between eg. Taoist ritual manuals for priests and, say, The Tao of Pooh that you must surely recognise]. Fine and good, but if there's no real distinction between insiders and outsiders, then doesn't this weaken the specialness of claiming that a narrative is an "insider narrative"?

If I see somebody has written a book and he claims he's from some really open Buddhist lineage which practically doesn't have monks anymore, just a bunch of Californians who are totally into the Zen stuff and find it rilly liberating, I am not impressed by any claims by the author that this is an "authentic" or "insider narrative" -- really, I'd be more impressed by somebody who cared enough to write a book but considered himself an "outsider", because it doesn't look like the people who are inside are terribly interested in defining an out-group, or making it clear who they secretly think *is* in the out-group.

But suppose the book is written by some author of a religion where you have to get your balls cut off even to BEGIN practicing it seriously, and then you have to live in a shack made of reeds on the top of a mountain for five years, while undergoing yearly initiation rites, each more brutal and imparting of religious wisdom than the last, and also there are only a few dozen of these people in the whole world, and they believe that we are all just bad dreams and they're the only real people... then yes, if his story checks out, then i am very much interested to know that *this particular book* is written by a dude who went through all that stuff and got indoctrinated in that way! The book may not be any good, but it is most certainly an "insider narrative"!


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:25 am 
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The question is, if Yiuel did manage to cross that trans-dimensional portal, would he definitely sign up with that mentor? If he would, then I would consider him Endajuesú.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:36 am 
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Pthagnar wrote:
"Are they us or them?" is a separate question from "Is what we are saying true?". Whether or not the lizard men are muslims is a question for muslims to answer, and probably end up disagreeing over.

They probably would, like it has been debated here whether Eledhat followers were really linked to Christianity. Also, whether the supposed alien would be Muslim or not is up to Muslims, but I was simply using it as an image. (Especially since I have known many Muslims who say that the Quran has the answer to everything.)

Quote:
Yiuel Raumbesrairc wrote:
if he is not, the Quran itself isn't sufficient enough to be Muslim and the whole Islam credo falls apart.
this is the correct answer. I don't see that stories that are associated with the religion inspired by the Koran that the reptoid inhabitants of Lacerta Prime come up with *do* give us any special "insider" insight into what the anthropoid inhabitants of Sol Tertius who call themselves Muslims practice. The story may be interesting, and depending on what sort of religion the lizards set up, may or may not be an "insider narrative" of some form of Lizlam.

It does not give an insider view of Sol Tertius Islam, it would give an insider's view from Islam.
I wonder about what you mean by correct. Is he not Muslim because the credo itself is wrong; is he not Muslim because the Quran is not enough to say one is Muslim, is he not simply because he doesn't happen to have actually met someone who met etc. who met Muhammad. If the first, I certainly can agree that to me, Islam credo is pretty much like Christian credo and, to me, while interesting in an anthropological way, full of crap. If the second, what's missing for him to be a Muslim? Perhaps the third question is the answer. But in all, what does not make him a Muslim?
About the report itself, as zompist has said, I am not giving an insider report from Xurno, a Dzusnar or from an Almean perspective. I do describe Almea, I believe it is part of the whole history behind it, but my Insider view is from someone who took a credo, dusted off tons of crap unrelated to the credo and more related to the culture, and came up with something that, while it might not be Xurnese Endajué, I do claim it to be Endajué because I actually follow the credo that has been set in Endajué (perhaps I failed to grasp it, I do not know completely; but I don't think I am far from the actual thing, seeing how zompist reacts to the whole thread, with joy).
Basically, this is a report from a believer, from someone who actually believes the credo (which is probably one of the smallest of all in the world right now). I am reporting as an Endajuésu (endajueist) convert, this is the insider idea. The interest is to see the viewpoint of a believer of the credo and, interestingly, for once, zompist didn't have to imagine one (though, again, I am not a Xurnese Endajueist).

Quote:
But okay, you picked the other answer [which is weird since why do you care about whether or not the revelation of the koran has that power but never mind], but you give the example of Taoists [although even there there is a distinction between eg. Taoist ritual manuals for priests and, say, The Tao of Pooh that you must surely recognise]. Fine and good, but if there's no real distinction between insiders and outsiders, then doesn't this weaken the specialness of claiming that a narrative is an "insider narrative"?

In a human group, who is inside, who is outside? There is a real distinction between insiders and outsiders, but among insiders, they are, or might be, finer distinctions. Humans don't relate simply in a strictly "us and they" fashion, though some would like it to be that easy and that creates schisms. We have many "we"s, the ultimate one being "I". I am not a Xurnese Endajuéist, nor an Almean Endajuéist. I am not even a Prironda Endajuéist. I am part of the Universe, here, as a Terran Endajuéist. I am Endajué, but not Xurnese. Like you, I am Terran, but you are not Endajué. We relate in different ways.
A weakening of a specialness in terms of culture does not take out its specialness completely. It is still special, I know of only one other person who actually liked Endajué the same way I did, and he took part in this thread. You have the worldview of someone with a rare religion, and one that I daresay is quite puzzling to a human mind. Indeed, it makes it special even further.

Quote:
If I see somebody has written a book and he claims he's from some really open Buddhist lineage which practically doesn't have monks anymore, just a bunch of Californians who are totally into the Zen stuff and find it rilly liberating, I am not impressed by any claims by the author that this is an "authentic" or "insider narrative" -- really, I'd be more impressed by somebody who cared enough to write a book but considered himself an "outsider", because it doesn't look like the people who are inside are terribly interested in defining an out-group, or making it clear who they secretly think *is* in the out-group.


Then, for you, anything that is short of complete guruism is unimpressing? I hope you do realize what you are saying here : you actually want people to say there is a they and an us, a dichotomy. I am right; they are wrong.
For one, that is so Endajuézach. The whole finality of Endajué reflexion is that even the most deeply striving one is still part of the Dance; how can then there be a fundamental "we and they"; for Endajué, you have "we 1" and "we 2", and together we form another we, and this leads us to the whole worldwide we (interesting pun) that is the Ez. So, for one thing, I will never be able to "impress" you because I cannot, in my sane mind following Endajué principles, declare there is an absolute outside. I am relatively inside because I believe to be closer to Endajué than you or, perhaps, even zompist are; but the idea is not that you are the "they"; just another "we" that I could be trying to reach out.
But I am not, I am not, ultimately, interested in converting people; they will either convert themselves with how I am, act and react, or Endajué will die with me as a mere test that failed. It would be fun however to have people with whom I could actually go fully Endajué mode go into deep reflections upon the world. I have friends with whom I can do that, and the thoughts that come out then I show them on my blog now. Dzusuisi, if there were any.
And yet, with all this, I am ultimately defining a group; being Endajué is not to follow the seven disciplines. It's not that; if it were that, I would be flagelling myself almost to death; no Endajué is simply a mindset, a thoughtframe that you have to get used to first. Rotten disciplines, or easy mantras are not part of Endajué, and I have nothing showy like that to show, and I never hope to become a Martyr. What defines Endajuésu from other people is its inquisitiveness; compromission has happened (like a certain last Keshaup Dzusey did), but the basic is that you never stop thinking, evaluating. This incompromission towards inquisitiveness, even regarding my own sloppy metaphor with the alien, is something that has to be done continuously, which, for me, is highly interesting in itself to do, because you never stop learning, dusting the world.

Quote:
But suppose the book is written by some author of a religion where you have to get your balls cut off even to BEGIN practicing it seriously, and then you have to live in a shack made of reeds on the top of a mountain for five years, while undergoing yearly initiation rites, each more brutal and imparting of religious wisdom than the last, and also there are only a few dozen of these people in the whole world, and they believe that we are all just bad dreams and they're the only real people... then yes, if his story checks out, then i am very much interested to know that *this particular book* is written by a dude who went through all that stuff and got indoctrinated in that way! The book may not be any good, but it is most certainly an "insider narrative"!


As I said above, you're not looking for a practitioner, you're basically out for a show.
I am not a show, though I do not hesitate now to show that I am Endajuésu. Seriously practicing Endajué is not being showy; quite the opposite (c.f. Cuzeian moral, which is more about actual action than seeming good, but the Keshaup Dzuséy were pretty much annoyed by the showiness of their own followers). The only way I can show I am showy is in the way I think. This is the core of it, I could dance all my life, that would be rotten discipline. What ever you do, don't do it for the practice. In Endajué, unlike Zen or Tao, you don't even want to clear your mind. You want your mind to be inquisitive, you want it to be always awake, as much as possible, distinguishing between the clouds of illusions, the speck of unillusion that can appear at any moment.
This is a serious practice of Endajué. A Keshaup Dzusey pointed out six disciplines to do. So what? He's one among thousands. And, as many others said, any discipline, no matter how well-intentionned you do it, does not lead you to the All. Let's take all the disciplines :
Listening (aujudo) to the dzusey
I have no Dzusey to listen to, I then listen to next best things : I digged out all of the Endajué page stuff, I keep a look on what zompist has to say on things, and I look at the Universe itself. I listen to what I can. And why would listening be the first discipline? Because it is the most important; without input, there can be no output. You cannot express what you weren't exposed to. (Fun fact, it is so important... that it is part of language learning.)
Meditation (puceumudo)
With a lot of input, you have a lot to work out. This is the time when you actually work out in your mind all the things you have listened to. You will then pinpoint stuff that work, and stuff that doesn't, step by step dusting the Path.
Mentoring (endevugaudo), assisting those less enlightened (and keeping them from bothering the master)
Everytime I speak to someone, I do that. I am not forcing it on them, but I try to show them what I have seen. It's even funnier to see their face when what they expect to be true turns out so hard to be false. But then again, you can also learn a lot from this. Reflection of one's own thoughts can be damaging; you do not want a depressed person to reflect on his own depression because it actually reinforces it. And, on the practitioner's side, you can be surprised at how the illusions of others can reveal your own illusions. It can be a painful experience at first, but once you come to enjoy it, it's one of the most surprising time ever.
Movement (reatudo)— exercise or dance
Well that one should be obvious. Without a healthy body, it is hard to think, so it's just to make sure your body is always in good health. Indeed, I would add sleep and eating as well to that, just to make sure one stays healthy. I do it, simply by walking or riding my bike to go to work or do my stuff, by sleeping well, by eating and basically taking care of myself.
Labor (šigu)—physical work: growing food, cleaning, taking care of the sick
This one is simply a reminder that you are part of the dance yourself, so take a part in it and "dance". I don't grow my food, but I do clean my own apartment. But really, the whole call of this is one is simply to take part in the whole dance, and that whatever you do, you must remember that you aren't special and above anyone else, just one simple human being, or "su" in Xurnese.
Self-control (xeyacudo), disciplines intended to train the body, from fasting to self-flagellation
This is actually the one part related to the Path; it is not a straightforward road, you will go through many things. This is just a way to prepare you to the hardship, which may and probably will happen, and through the joys of life, to enjoy them.
Reading, the seven discipline, is actually an extension of the first discipline to learn from other Dzuséy, or even other people in general. Only you can do Unillision to yourself, but many will have dusted things that you might not have found yourself; mixing this up together you can actually go more quickly, not because you understand more, but because your beliefs are actually beyond what has been dusted by others and you don't much care anymore (but, as much as you can, you should care, because you might actually find a big mistake, like Enstein did with gravity.)
I practice all seven disciplines, but not in a showy way : in a balanced way which is exactly what, I believe, the Keshaup Dzuséy and, by extension, zompist, intended. Not a great show for you perhaps, but to me it is the true spirit of Endajué.

Mornche Geddick wrote:
The question is, if Yiuel did manage to cross that trans-dimensional portal, would he definitely sign up with that mentor? If he would, then I would consider him Endajuesú.


I would. We would have a lot to learn from each other.

EDIT : The irony in the above post is that I have, in the end, probably put up a good show to actually demonstrate how I really am devoted. Just not in a gory way.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:02 am 
Lebom
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I guess that by "su" you meant "xumaur". If I understand it correctly, "su" is a suffix like English "-er" or "-ist" (c.f. raysu "member").

And as for aujudo, would following your posts in this thread make me 1/6 Endajue? (1/7 if I count the šizaur reatuc -- but this is nitpicking).


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:44 am 
Avisaru
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Ambrisio wrote:
I guess that by "su" you meant "xumaur". If I understand it correctly, "su" is a suffix like English "-er" or "-ist" (c.f. raysu "member").

And as for aujudo, would following your posts in this thread make me 1/6 Endajue? (1/7 if I count the šizaur reatuc -- but this is nitpicking).


I didn't check the dictionary, as I should have considering my level...

As for the second part... As if the disciplines were all that is of Endajué. If they were a part of Endajué as a fundamental credo, we would have heard of it from all the Keshaup Dzusey. No; they are actually simply tools that evolved from Endajué, which is not about disciplines at all. Like with anything else beyond the simple credo, everything, including the disciplines I daresay, are perfectible. So no, it doesn't make you 1/6 Endajuesu.

Every waking moment should be a time for dusting the All. One sleeps, one eats and one dances. But every step of this should be an exploration of the All. The more you do it, the closer you are. Or this is my own understanding. Even if you don't practice the six disciplines, you will eventually experience them anyway if you keep on exploring. Listening is an obvious one, but when you are done reading my posts, you don't simply forget : you reflect on it; lo! you even pointed out my bad Xurnese. So you're already doing two of the disciplines.

But if I were Erelaean, I'd probably live in Murap anyways... Xurnese is pretty much useless there. Tei is the language to learn.

But hey, you even do the third one. After eating and digesting, you took the crap out (by pointing my bad Xurnese) and turned into good food for your mind. And you expressed it yourself. So there, the three intellectual disciplines in one single shot. So you are already half-Endajuesu (if I am to be considered a Jivirc or Beylusu). But you probably do the fifth discipline as well; you take part in the Dance itself. If you do anything to keep you in physical shape, you're doing the 4th one as well. So 5/6. And eventually, life will pour on you some hardship, which will then be an experience of the sixth. Especially if you actively explore the world : something is bound to hurt you in the way. So there, you have them all. Happy?

But I am not; as I said, no matter how I look at it, the disciplines cannot be at the center of Endajué. The center of Endajué is your mindset, your openness to grasp the great dichotomy of All Together, the Dance, in which you follow a Path. It doesn't make you Endajué per say to declare it; you have to actively open yourself to this long-term understanding. It's like science : you must keep on questionning yourself, especially about your own most sacred beliefs. You have something that does not agree with your theory? Don't toss that something into a trashcan; first check if it's really something, and if it is, toss the theory for a clearer one.

And if you do that, it's clearly more Endajué-like than any discipline done for its sake.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:04 pm 
Lebom
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I didn't look it up in the dictionary either :-)

I think you took my last comment (about being 1/6 Endajuesu) way too seriously. I meant it as a joke.


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