zompist bboard

After reading Virtual Verduria for a while I came up with this:

Enne šun

This language is a Xurnese descendant that could be spoken in Tellinor. Like the Proto-Eastern language family which is meant to echo Indo-European (and Uyse' and Le which are sort of like Chinese), this language echoes Finnic. I have always imagined the languages of Tellinor to be rather like Finnish/Estonian (with lots of cases, agglutinating to fusional morphology, etc.)

While the sounds haven't changed much, the morphology and syntax are very different from Xurnese. The situation is analogous to Haitian Creole.

The sound changes from Xurnese are as follows:

1) Final unstressed vowels are deleted, e.g. end 'path' from ende, set 'six' from sechi.
2) Nasal-voiced stop clusters are assimilated to double nasals, and nasal-voiceless stop clusters are lenited to nasal-voiced stop clusters, unless followed by a stressed vowel, e.g. enne 'of the path' from ende o.
3) Stress shifts to the first syllable in all words.
4) Sibilants often undergo dissimulation to stops: tis 'seven', to dendsip 'he hopes' (compare Xurnese to denjic) etc.
5) CH became T, and J became D. There are a few exceptions, however.

Morphology:

Nouns have seventeen cases: nominative, genitive, partitive, translative, terminative, essive, comitative, instrumental, abessive, illative, inessive, elative, allative, adessive, ablative, superessive, and subessive. These derive from Xurnese postpositions.

For example: 'river'
NOM: rin, rinam
GEN: rina, rinai
PART: rina, rinait
TRANSL: rinaka, rinaika
TERM: rinab, rinaib
ESS: rinats, rinaits
COM: rinamu, rinaimu
INSTR: rinaram, rinairam
ABESS: rinate, rinaite
ILL: rinare, rinaire
INESS: rinar, rinair
ELA: rinaro, rinairo (this means 'about' in addition to 'from')
ALL: rinato, rinaito
ADESS: rinan, rinain
ABL: rinano, rinaino
SUPER: rinane, rinaine
SUB: rinaša, rinaiša

The basic forms are the nominative, genitive, partitive and genitive plural which must be memorized. However there are paradigms:

berlut 'illusion': GEN. berludo, GEN PL: berluzu, PART: berlus
šukesut 'painting': GEN. šukesudo, GEN PL: šukesudu, PART: šukesur (note the oddity)
šebret 'book': GEN. šebresi, GEN PL: šebreši, PART: šebrest
sairt 'student' GEN. sairti, GEN PL: sairtu, PART: sairt
plaup 'papyrus': GEN. plao, GEN PL: plaue, PART: plaut
edir 'ancient': GEN. ediri, GEN PL: ediru, PART: edirt
wes 'dancer' GEN. we, GEN PL: wemu, PART: west (from 'artist')
mes 'woman' GEN. mee, GEN PL: mezi, PART: mest (this is weird for a Finnic imitation -- 'mees' means man in Estonian)
min 'star' GEN. mina, GEN PL: mine, PART: mint
boyusirt 'number' GEN. boyusirti, GEN PL: boyusirtu, PART: boyusirt
weneš 'happy' GEN. weneše, GEN PL: wenei, PART: wenet


Partitives are used after numbers rather than plurals:

peikdest dim sairt "fifty-three students"
peigadešidimamu sairt "with fifty-three student"
but:
amin plaon "on one paper"

Numbers:

Nominative (Genitive, Partitive)
am (ami, ant) 'one'
bum (buma, bunt) 'two'
dim (dima, dint) 'three'
baz (baza, bast) 'four'
peik (peiga, peika) 'five'
set (seti, set) 'six'
tis (tise, tist) 'seven'
yauš (yauši, yaut) 'eight'
nep (nebo, nepo) 'nine'
deš (deši, dest) 'ten'
ampudest (amipudeši, antpudest) 'eleven' literally "one of the second ten" (am - pust - dest)
bumpudest 'twelve' etc.
bumdest 'twenty'
dimdest 'thirty'
seat (segas, seast) 'hundred'
ezer (ezeri, ezert) 'thousand'
milyon (milyoni, milyont) 'million'

The pronouns are as follows (nominative, genitive and partitive):

su, i, sut (I)
yes, oyes, yest (you)
to, oto, tet (he/she)
se, se, set (it - from ci)
tas, tir, tast (we)
mis, mir, mist (you)
kis, sir, kist (they)

Verbs:

'to please': kalis - kalu, kale, kalep, kalum, kalut, kalute
'to look': reše - rešu, reše, rešep, rešum, rešut, rešute
'to cook': tir - tiru, tire, tirep, tirum, tirut, tirute
Even 'to be' is almost regular:
ize - zu, ze, e, zum, zut, zute

There is a negative verb, šat, which conjugates as follows: šau, šat, šat, šaum, šaut, šaute (Cf Finnish en, et, ei, emme, ette, eivät). In the presnt tense it is followed by the bare present stem:
su šau kal 'I don't please'
to šat ze 'he is not'
tas šaum tir 'we don't cook'

The bare present tense stem is used as in imperative: Ze doš! 'Be good!'

In the past tense, there is an infix:
kalis - kalidu, kalide, kalid, kalidum, kalidut, kalide
reše - rešedu, rešede, rešed, rešedum, rešedut, rešede
tir - tirtu, tirte, tiret (irregular), tirtum, tirtut, tirte
ize - šudu, šude, šud, šudum, šudut, šude (irregular)
same ('to come') - samidu, samide, samid, samidum, samidut, samide

In the negative, a different form is used: su šau tet kalaup 'I did not please him' (Cf Estonian 'ma ei teda meeldinud'), to šat širuit tiraup 'he did not cook vegetables'.

There is no future tense. The present tense is used instead.

There is also the subjunctive:
kalis - kalimu, kalime, kalim, kalimum, kalimut, kalime
tir - tirmu, tirme, tirem, tirmum, tirmut, tirme
ize - izemu, izeme, izem, izemum, izemut, izeme

The past subjunctive is formed from the participle:
kalis - izemu kalaup, izeme kalaup, ...

There are three infinitives: for example:
kalis - kalser, kalis, kalut (c.f. Estonian: meeldima, meeldida, meeldimine)
reše - rešer, reše, rešaut
ize - zer, ize, izaut
tir - tirer, tir, tiraut
same - samer, same, samut

To say 'to have', the adessive case is used: In zute šebresit "I have some books".

There is also an impersonal form: kalis -> kaliman 'people please' (c.f. Estonian 'meelditakse'), rešeman 'people look', tirman 'people cook'.

The word rileman is used for 'there is' (literally 'people see'): Rileman šebret. 'There is a book.' In the plural, however, the partitive case is used:
Rileman šebrešit. "There are books".
Rileman baz šebrest. "There are four books".

In the past tense the suffix -mat is used: rilemat 'people saw' (c.f. Estonian 'nähti'). In the negative, the suffix is -maup, e.g. šat rilemaup 'was not seen'.

Syntax

The normal word order is SVO. This could have been due to an intermediate V2 stage. There are still remnants of the old V2 ordering, c.f. su šau tet kalaup 'I did not please him'.

John samid. "John came."
John rešed šebresire. "John looked at the books."
Sairt Brazilero kaimep šebrest rumuro. "The student from Brazil buys a book about apples". (rus 'apple' is declined like wes 'dancer')

There is wh-movement:

de (de, dea) 'who'
di (di, dit) 'what'

Dire John rešed? "What did John look at"?
Compare
Dit John riled? "What did John see"?

Why is there a descendant of Xurnese in Téllinor? Is this intended to be contemporary (3480ZE)? Or a future development?

Interesting, regardless tho.

Zompist will not be happy.

This is meant to be kind of futuristic, maybe 4000 to 4500 Z.E.

IN THE YEAR 4000







Nah, he's not inciting a feminist-anarchist rebellion with giant floating intestines, so he's probably good.

I wonder what zompist's policy on derivatives like this is.

Maybe I should put it in my conworld (which doesn't have a name yet).

BTW, here are some examples of Enne Šun:

Segatro duswit, dit zu sinnaup, disest e yungesmelt? Mušize palat tam.
hundred-ELA aphorism-PART, what-PART be-1SG-PRES speak-P.ACT.PART, which-PART be-3SG-PRES wise-PART? maybe only this-one
"Of the hundred aphorisms that I have spoken, which ones are wise? Perhaps only this one."

Šade "ma", e "li".
is-not "or", is "and".
It's not an "or", it's an "and".

I sabunek (or it could be "braivenek") e daziasu nošwater.
my sister-GEN-daughter (brother-GEN-daughter) is sculptor-GEN date-INF-INESS.
"My niece is dating a sculptor".

Karavinka wrote:I wonder what zompist's policy on derivatives like this is.

There's only been one derivative work that amounted to any large text that I can think of, and it was Eddy's...special...fanfic (which I referenced above) where the people from his conworld at the time zapped or whatever to Almea and started a feminist-anarchist rebellion against what he felt were oppressive forces. It was horrible, and while Almea certainly isn't a paradise of justice and equality it's nowhere near the almost-Gorean dystopia Eddy malinterpreted it as.

Choosing Xurnese seems a bit odd. After all, it's an Eastern language (the Almean Indo-European), and I've always thought Xurnese had a strong hint of Polish in it. I understand how Xurno going through a population boom and deciding to colonize Tellinor could proceed by the year 4000, but getting from a Polish-like phonology to a Finnish-like one seems a bit of a stretch.

Or, if a Tellinorian language has a Finnic phonology, it can be transferred to the creole language. (So far I am not happy with the phonology - there are no front rounded/back unrounded vowels). Teoši managed to do it (it has all four of õ, ä, ö and ü) so it can certainly be done.

The main bit of inspiration for me was that Xurnese postpositions could very well be interpreted as case endings (and one of them, the abessive tes, even looks like Estonian -ta or Finnish -tta).

Õ? IPA, please. At least where there's multiple widespread conflicting interpretations of a diacritic (ä technically has this problem too, but [æ]~[E] is less problematic than [õ]~...whatever Estonian (I'm presuming) õ is.)

Drydic Guy wrote:Õ? IPA, please. At least where there's multiple widespread conflicting interpretations of a diacritic (ä technically has this problem too, but [æ]~[E] is less problematic than [õ]~...whatever Estonian (I'm presuming) õ is.)

Estonian õ is not [õ] (a nasal [o]), but a mid central-back unrounded vowel.

Drydic Guy wrote:

Karavinka wrote:I wonder what zompist's policy on derivatives like this is.

There's only been one derivative work that amounted to any large text that I can think of, and it was Eddy's...special...fanfic (which I referenced above) where the people from his conworld at the time zapped or whatever to Almea and started a feminist-anarchist rebellion against what he felt were oppressive forces. It was horrible, and while Almea certainly isn't a paradise of justice and equality it's nowhere near the almost-Gorean dystopia Eddy malinterpreted it as.

Wait...what? Where can I see this?

I guess I should have some sort of policy.

Almea is a personal creation and I'd rather people didn't try to flesh out the blank spots in the maps or history.

That said, I don't mind if you want to create a derived language, or use Almea as a game setting, or even write fanfic, so long as you understand it's not canonical. (In fact it should probably go in C&C not here, though if you do put it there I probably won't see it.)

(Nick was writing a story set in Verduria at one point, and that was fine, though I'd add that if you decorate your flesh with Almean symbols using needles you get a lot of leeway. Eddy's bit was just annoying.)

An Almea/X-Men crossover is now in the works.

"Oh my stars and garters," whimpered Beast as the felinoid creatures circled his prostrate form. Still too weak from his trip through the dimensional rift, he could do nothing but watch these odd beings. Some carried crude tools. Could they be sentient? "Please, good sirs and madams, I am in need of aid." The creatures paused briefly at the sound of his voice, then began pairing up and coupling! Beast averted his eyes, but one pair staggered up to him and began emitting a yowling noise. Before he could formulate a response to this bizarre situation, another individual's long forelegs were draped over his shoulders. A poking sensation near his posterior informed the hero that this was a male. He cursed his secondary mutation, which had given him his new leonine appearance.

WeepingElf wrote:

Drydic Guy wrote:Õ? IPA, please. At least where there's multiple widespread conflicting interpretations of a diacritic (ä technically has this problem too, but [æ]~[E] is less problematic than [õ]~...whatever Estonian (I'm presuming) õ is.)

Estonian õ is not [õ] (a nasal [o]), but a mid central-back unrounded vowel.

Nowhere did I claim it to be [õ]. Please read more carefully. But than you for the answer to my actual question as well.

dhokarena56 wrote:

Drydic Guy wrote:

Karavinka wrote:I wonder what zompist's policy on derivatives like this is.

There's only been one derivative work that amounted to any large text that I can think of, and it was Eddy's...special...fanfic (which I referenced above) where the people from his conworld at the time zapped or whatever to Almea and started a feminist-anarchist rebellion against what he felt were oppressive forces. It was horrible, and while Almea certainly isn't a paradise of justice and equality it's nowhere near the almost-Gorean dystopia Eddy malinterpreted it as.

Wait...what? Where can I see this?

This was...2004 I think? It's long since gone. And it wasn't worth reading. If you're that interested, imagine Gor* without the sexual humiliation etc, and that'll be close enough.
Worst part was he wrote an ending where his Terps exhort their converts to continue the fight as they are forced to leave when Zompist told him to stop.

*If you don't know what Gor is, I'd advise against directly googling examples from it; instead read this and s/plant/women/ and s/watering/sex/.

edit: dammit. grammar fail.

Drydic Guy wrote:

WeepingElf wrote:

Drydic Guy wrote:Õ? IPA, please. At least where there's multiple widespread conflicting interpretations of a diacritic (ä technically has this problem too, but [æ]~[E] is less problematic than [õ]~...whatever Estonian (I'm presuming) õ is.)

Estonian õ is not [õ] (a nasal [o]), but a mid central-back unrounded vowel.

Nowhere did I claim it to be [õ]. Please read more carefully. But than you for the answer to my actual question as well.

I never intended to claim that you claimed that, sorry for the misunderstanding!