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The Multipliers
http://www.incatena.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=42196
Page 1 of 2

Author:  Mornche Geddick [ Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:34 am ]
Post subject:  The Multipliers

Wondered where and when it was set, thought it had to be Wede:i, as the narrator is literate. Have found most of the towns mentioned .

I am guessing that the city is Bi:dau and the date around -650 Z.E. Am I right?

Author:  zompist [ Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

Close enough— I'd probably put it a little earlier than the empire. And Bi:dau would make sense as it's the only Delta city to have a king at that time.

Author:  Brel [ Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers


Author:  Mornche Geddick [ Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

What clued me in was the incipient boom in copper. It had to be around the time bronze working was getting started. I also thought it was telling that a lot of the towns, like Na:iwor and Śinji, seem to be independent.

Interesting to note the major god seems to be Akśim, the river ("Euphrates"?) and not Wila:r (Meśa). EDIT: Going down the Meśaism page I realised that positively identifies the town as Bi:dau.

Author:  zompist [ Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers


Author:  Brel [ Mon Sep 16, 2013 8:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

Ah, okay.

I'm pretty in the dark about the history of math. Addition and subtraction are things we (and the uesti) can do with our fingers, but multiplication and division couldn't have become important before agriculture. Anyone have any books on the topic?

Author:  Salmoneus [ Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

Huh?
"We gathered 14 mushrooms today, and have three children. How many mushrooms should each child get?"
"We need four logs for each side of the building and the building has four sides. How many logs do we need to get in total?"

Author:  hwhatting [ Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers


Author:  Drydic [ Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

I was gonna dis-cover Fire today, but then I got high
We were gonna roast sloth meat all night long, but then I got high
Now we're eatin' palm leaves, and I know why (yeah-heahhhh)
Because I got high, because I got high, because I got high-ighhhhhh

Author:  zompist [ Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers


Author:  Mornche Geddick [ Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

Not necessarily. The Sumerians had a writing system of sorts for nearly a millennium before they had multiplication tables. (They had pictographs as early as 3500 BC.)

Author:  Ars Lande [ Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

Early mathematics could be weird — it seems that the Egyptians never got the idea of multiplication tables and decomposed one operand into powers of two instead.
(So, to calculate 111 * 15, for instance they did 111 * 8 + 111 * 4 + 111 * 2 + 111).

Author:  Neek [ Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

The Egyptians never really bothered with the theory of mathematics, only the necessary utilitarian properties of it. This is made obvious by the sheer mathematics of the Pyramds--just googling about mathematics and Pyramids reveals some interesting and amazing topics on the subject. There is little evidence that the Egyptians knew of such mathematics, so evidence more leans on that they applied math, they did not study it. (On the other hand, they may have known about it, but the evidence doesn't exist. My college math courses were a fascinating study of a variety of different mathematical topics, including Egyptian geometry, which sticks out the most. My professor chalked it up to just not caring about the intricate theories, but more of what gets the results done--he could be wrong, and therefore I could be wrong too.)

Author:  Mornche Geddick [ Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

In this early story the Wedei civilization does have merchants. The class must have died out under the empire. I wonder how that happened. Perhaps certain wealthy people would be granted monopolies (like Miriŋi:l with elcarin steel) as royal favours, which could then be revoked, and either retained in royal hands or granted to the priesthood. In this way a market economy might end up as mostly a command economy. Is that how it happened?

Author:  zompist [ Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

That's kind of in flux. I'm in the middle of a book on early civilizations-- I feel like I don't know enough about how certain things develop, especially economies.

However, what's pretty certain is that the Wede:i weren't what we'd call a market economy. They mostly deal in bulk items, luxury goods, and inter-city trade, and there is no single currency. It's possible that they weren't independent entrepreneurs, but agents of temples and landowners, or perhaps minor landless nobility. Not sure yet.

Author:  Drydic [ Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

CAUNEAS

Author:  Mornche Geddick [ Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

Interesting. It sounds from what you say, Zompist, as though the borderline between the two types of economy could be fluid. What is the title of that book you're reading? I think I'd like to read it too.

Author:  zompist [ Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

It's Understanding Early Civilizations by Bruce G. Trigger. It focuses on Egypt, Mesopotamia, Shang China, the Aztecs, the Maya, the Incas, and the Yoruba. It's also very huge and dense, so I'm not far into it. :)

Author:  Owain [ Sun Sep 29, 2013 3:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

Very interesting. For a start, how much trade was there between Munkhash and the Wede:i, and what did the Wede:i know about the ktuvoks? What kind of rebellion was Munsuk's and why did the philosopher support it? More importantly why does the merchant take so long to realise they're fighting Muku - it seems fairly obvious. Are they using something like peasants’ multiplication? And does anyone know what sort of economy Mesopotamian city-states had for comparison purposes?

Author:  justin [ Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

I'm not quite getting how multiplication could have been a new thing to them. 'Cause I'm looking at the Wede:i numbers, and multiplication is kind of built-in, right? To say "twelve," you have to say "two sixes." Is that kind of multiplication okay by the priests, and Bokugo is just the first guy to make a table based on "Hey, if this works with six, it'll work with one through five"?

Also, in the multiplication table at the top, do the two dots underneath read -ka?
And why is the numeral for 36 a picture of a person? What are there thirty-six of on a person? Or is that not a person?

Author:  zompist [ Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers


Author:  zompist [ Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers


Author:  justin [ Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers


Author:  Mornche Geddick [ Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

In celebration of Christmas, and my copy of the Lexipedia arriving, I thought I would try out my Wede:i translation skills on Zompist's latest story.

The Multipliers

2 Tokn

"Dined with Bokugo tonight. Truly an unsung genius"
Go:źiok Bokugoli lil seki. Raluŋ, ŋinuulze to:magu.
eat-PAST Bokugo-WITH this night. Oracle-ADJ sing-PP-NEG clever-AUG-MAN

"It’s a shame he has to live in such a squalid quarter: the Dry Wells section,"
ŋerugesa yurma ŋa:unaak-do ra gau śa:uge : lu:sir lu:a:in gala:i,
live-DUR-CAUS bad-AUG street-COLL-LOC in THAT shame-DUR : water-WITHOUT water-PLACE-PL enclosure,

"virtually in the shadow of the Aklu:ma Gate"
Aklu:manodaunoraudo ru:sirdo ra liluŋ
Aklu:ma-GEN-city-GEN-door-LOC sun-WITHOUT-NOM-LOC in near-ADJ

"We were bothered by beggars all evening"
lila:ugun bauokingzerape sekibuge
approach-PERS-PL quiet-PAST-1-NEG-PASS-REP night-before-DUR

"till Bokugo brandished a sword at them."
Bokugo toawo jalanoknido bu
Bokugo sword-OBJ wave-PAST-IND.OBJ-LOC before

"Discussed King's Ear Nauroda's decree against the followers of Munśuk."
yoneningok moganopaźiwa Naurodano Munśukno la:utigun sa:un soŋur
speak-REF-1-PAST ear-GEN-king Naroda-GEN Munśuk-GEN come-after-PERS-PL law strike-GER

"Bokugo was worried that his own support for Munśuk would come out"
Munśukdo śaiuri la:urokju gau Bokugo paijokge
Munśuk-LOC support-GER-GEN3 come-out-ABIL THAT Bokugo fear-PAST-DUR

"but I assured him that no one would ever know."
dowugo ze:nuyuze gau lisaingnei
nobody know-TENT-NEG THAT explain-1-BUT-3

"The truth is, I doubt anyone in the palace even knows Bokugo's name."
Raluŋa, paun bogu nizdo Bokugono sim ze:nuze gau yediŋze
Oracle-GER-NOM, some person palace-LOC Bokugo-GEN word(name) know-NEG THAT think-1-NEG

"Still, I wish he would be more discreet about these things."
ŋozi, bauyonyuta lil bokando gau
same(pragmatic), quiet-speak-TENT-DES THIS thing-PL THAT

"Love what the king loves and prosper, as the proverb says."
paźiwa zu:rtaugeuŋ zu:rtaro yebi:li:ka gau ze:nsaju yonu
king love-DUR-ADJ love-IMP (be)rich-AND THAT teaching-thing say

"Bokugo seemed unusually excited about one of his projects."
Bono su:bokando Bokugo paun joka do:uŋ liraok
one-GEN new-thing-PL-LOC Bokugo some other-AND(more) breeze-ADJ(excited) see-PASS-PAST

"Something about addition. It was lost on me."
Bobokado paun boka. Soźokśino.
One-one-AND-LOC some thing. Lose -PAST-DAT.PASS-1OBJ

"I have no head for higher mathematics."
Duziŋ dowo śenuŋ boboze:insaka nituk yuma
have-1 no high-ADJ one-one-teach-NOM for head

Author:  zompist [ Wed Dec 25, 2013 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Multipliers

Impressive, especially with the limited Wede:i vocabulary! I'll check it over in more detail...

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