The Greeks

[GreenBowTie]

I based it on Wikipedia's article about Koine Greek phonology. That's a good idea about not having doubled consonants at the beginnings of words; I didn't even think about that when I did it. I don't really know what else to do though.

[Aurora Rossa]

Just did and might I say, wow. In a good way and a bad way. I mean, I haven't really come across anything I don't like very much in Z's stuff, but I just can't see why this is necessary. In fact, it seems to me totally unprecedented, out of the blue, and extremely out of place in with the other Almea stuff. An interesting idea, but, still...

Indeed, something about it just doesn't seem to click for me. It feels rather contrived to me, as if Mark wanted Christians in his conworld and decided to literally bring them in through author's fiat. The rest of his stuff impresses me a great deal, but this kind of feels unsatisfying.

[WeepingElf]

Just did and might I say, wow. In a good way and a bad way. I mean, I haven't really come across anything I don't like very much in Z's stuff, but I just can't see why this is necessary. In fact, it seems to me totally unprecedented, out of the blue, and extremely out of place in with the other Almea stuff. An interesting idea, but, still...

Indeed, something about it just doesn't seem to click for me. It feels rather contrived to me, as if Mark wanted Christians in his conworld and decided to literally bring them in through author's fiat. The rest of his stuff impresses me a great deal, but this kind of feels unsatisfying.

I concur with you. I also feel that the Elenicoi are an unnecessary bag on the side of an otherwise very coherent and original world. It just doesn't fit in well.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

On the contrary, I find it somehow right to have them.

Mark stated elsewhere that if he had to remake all of Almea, the Elenicoi would be out of there. However, I do like them. Not for what they bring, but what they make happen : the Verdurian renaissance. Even if all this was in the process of happening, the Elenicoi gave it a substantial boost, not the least actually questioning the whole pagan dogmatism. And it also created a strong rivalry in the plain, giving the boost Protestantism gave in Europe (with perhaps more religious diversity).

They might seem out of place, but they were well intergrated in the whole picture. I actually have more problems with the Flaids...

[WeepingElf]

They might seem out of place, but they were well intergrated in the whole picture. I actually have more problems with the Flaids...

Yes, the Flaids. I also think they are somewhat silly. But then, JRRT had Hobbits in Middle-earth. I have always thought of Flaids as Almea's Hobbits.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

They might seem out of place, but they were well intergrated in the whole picture. I actually have more problems with the Flaids...

Yes, the Flaids. I also think they are somewhat silly. But then, JRRT had Hobbits in Middle-earth. I have always thought of Flaids as Almea's Hobbits.

`

Not that they are silly, but they act as if they were "out of the world". (while the Elenicoi took an active part in Almea global history, even with their few number).

I find it reassuring actually that there may be worlds with two humanoïd species. Actually, among all non-uesti species, even though I have deep respect for the Ilii (which are an inspiration for my own Melvillians sociologically), the most original species are the Flaids. They aren't really nothing more than humans, without being nothing less as well, only another kind, that is, AFAWK, barren from reproducing with Uesti.

We do see them a few times in Verdurian and Kebreni history (the Kebreni's destruction of a Floran ship was crucial in one of the three Kebreni wars, while the Flaids avoided conquest a few times from Cadhinorians.), but they never go beyond their islands and the neighbouring countries. Have you ever seen a Floran ship in Nan (from which they aren't that far), Jippirim, Xurno or Arcel? And we know they are advanced enough to follow the Northern powers in their journeys. Even though they are part of Almea, even more than the Elenicoi, Flaids have had less influence on the whole picture.

There's maybe something sociological we do not understand about them (this might explain much, but the Descent of lesuasi is silent on sociological aspects, at least for the Flaids), but being part of the Verdurian renaissance, I would have seen them as a power countering both Verduria and Kebreni at sea, perhaps even taking part into the colonial adventure. When will we see Punellerteer or some other Floran colony?

(We know one thing about Flaids, is that they are more conservatives than humans, usually. This might explain why they do not leave Flora in great number and why we don't see them outside the Misicama littoral. But I would like Mark to give more info on the Flaidish character to further explain why we don't seen them much.)

[So Haleza Grise]

No conworld should be completely self-contained, IMHO. Tolkien never conceived of Middle-Earth as a totally separate entity from the real world; rather it was a part of Earth. Similarly, being a work of art, I would be quite disappointed if a conworld contained no personal touches and idiosyncracies from its creator. It would come across as "cookie-cut" and unreal.

The flaids, I think, are just such a touch - a reference to the fact that Almea used to be filled with gags.'

As to why they don't do much or be seen much: well, there are only a million of them, and Flora is quite small. Keeping to themselves is the only way that they're likely to preserve themselves.

[Aurora Rossa]

No conworld should be completely self-contained, IMHO. Tolkien never conceived of Middle-Earth as a totally separate entity from the real world; rather it was a part of Earth. Similarly, being a work of art, I would be quite disappointed if a conworld contained no personal touches and idiosyncracies from its creator. It would come across as "cookie-cut" and unreal.

Well, I tend to believe that conworlds should aim for realism when possible, such that they could in theory stand alone as a convincing realm. As such, I'm not so sure one should put personal touches like the Elenicoi or Flaids in by fiat unless they follow from the rest of the world. Indeed, I have always been advised not to inject too much of my idiosyncracies and personality in the world lest it become a soapbox or something.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

As to why they don't do much or be seen much: well, there are only a million of them, and Flora is quite small. Keeping to themselves is the only way that they're likely to preserve themselves.

Soi Elenicoi did much more, with only a maximum number of 100 people. As for their number, which Mark states to be 750 000 in Almeopedia, I understand how small they are. However, Verdurians are only 6 millions, and Kebrenites only perhaps half (if not less), so it's not that great a difference. I must also note how their power was fearsome to Kebri in the Kebreni war, so I suppose there is something else.

They also do not have a strong alliance with any of the two Almean superpowers (though they arguably share stronger links with Verduria). This reminds me of Sweden, small but independant. I would expect them to at least go farther than the Northern Littoral.

Keeping to their number may be a good explanation, but Flora can probably spare a few thousands in order to found a colony elsewhere. Or they could travel the world as the two superpowers do. (Though how they would be received by the non-Eretaldians is another question to be answered.)

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

No conworld should be completely self-contained, IMHO. Tolkien never conceived of Middle-Earth as a totally separate entity from the real world; rather it was a part of Earth. Similarly, being a work of art, I would be quite disappointed if a conworld contained no personal touches and idiosyncracies from its creator. It would come across as "cookie-cut" and unreal.

Well, I tend to believe that conworlds should aim for realism when possible, such that they could in theory stand alone as a convincing realm. As such, I'm not so sure one should put personal touches like the Elenicoi or Flaids in by fiat unless they follow from the rest of the world. Indeed, I have always been advised not to inject too much of my idiosyncracies and personality in the world lest it become a soapbox or something.

I think you can add about anything you want. Realism is difficult to define. People I know can imagine my Melvillians existing, but they somehow think of the place much like a weird paradise. I think that as long as you can explain what there is, nothing can stop you from adding things. Personality can give flesh to a conworld, people still wonder on how I actually radiate when speaking about my own concountry.

Flaids, biologically, are well intergrated. Elsewhere, an internal answer to their origins (the lost Tenth Human Tribe of the Count of Years) has been proposed, jokingly and certainly against what Mark imagined, but highly plausible contextually. The big problem is their social intergration ; it hasn't been as harmonious as the biological one. Externally, I suppose here some form of Specialist bias : one focuses too much on one species, letting the lesser ones into stereotypes. Internally, I have not yet seen any explanation.

[zompist]

Flaids aren't human, though they're close. If they acted like any human nation, they wouldn't be a very successful creation.

They're more gregarious than humans-- they like to live with other flaids. From their point of view humans have an unaccountable wanderlust.

Compare English vs. French colonialism: the English seemed willing to move all over the world, the French less so. The flaids are even less interested than that.

They don't mind voyages, so they are good mariners, and flaidish ships do travel most of the southern hemisphere.

Now mind, it's early in the colonialism game on Almea. The existing colonies are not highly profitable. That might change, especially if one of the major powers (say) managed to take over Uytai or Belesao. The flaids might yet conclude that they need to have their own colonial empire in order to keep up.

[Aurora Rossa]

I think you can add about anything you want. Realism is difficult to define. People I know can imagine my Melvillians existing, but they somehow think of the place much like a weird paradise. I think that as long as you can explain what there is, nothing can stop you from adding things. Personality can give flesh to a conworld, people still wonder on how I actually radiate when speaking about my own concountry.

True, and in practice I've always imbued my world with a lot of my own personality in spite of how people here would prefer I do things.

[brandrinn]

Criticisms of Almea's occasional lapses into unrealistic territory are kind of pointless. Almea is basically a highly sophisticated D&D campaign world, complete with (aquatic) elves, hobbits, orcs, dwarves, irredeemably evil nations with no kittens, and wizards. I mean, one guy basically ran :ch eiy because he could do magic; you expected realism?

Mind you, Almea is extraordinarily detailed and well thought out. That detail alone makes it more ralistic than any other D&D world simply because it's forced Mark (can I call you Mark?) to delve into areas of biology and economics that other fantasy authors ignore. But he's never claimed to make something totally believable.

Flaids = teh sex.

[WeepingElf]

They might seem out of place, but they were well intergrated in the whole picture. I actually have more problems with the Flaids...

Yes, the Flaids. I also think they are somewhat silly. But then, JRRT had Hobbits in Middle-earth. I have always thought of Flaids as Almea's Hobbits.

`

Not that they are silly, but they act as if they were "out of the world". (while the Elenicoi took an active part in Almea global history, even with their few number).

I think the isolationism of the Flaids is to a large part due to the fact that they are a distinct species. The people of all other countries are simply "of a different kind", and hence the Flaids feel that they have no business meddling with their conceits as long as they themselves are left alone in their little corner of the world. All they want is to live in peace, freedom and prosperity. Again, the Flaids are like Hobbits (or, to cite a real-world example, the Swiss).

[So Haleza Grise]

I think you can add about anything you want. Realism is difficult to define. People I know can imagine my Melvillians existing, but they somehow think of the place much like a weird paradise. I think that as long as you can explain what there is, nothing can stop you from adding things. Personality can give flesh to a conworld, people still wonder on how I actually radiate when speaking about my own concountry.

True, and in practice I've always imbued my world with a lot of my own personality in spite of how people here would prefer I do things.

I think it's not so much about not injecting your own personality, but IMHO the best conworlds contain elements, people and events that might jar or go against the author's assumptions. It's a sign of sophistication.

An alternate history where the Nazis conquered the world, for example, should at least mention some good things, however qualified, about life in that world. Perspectivism is tough to get rid of, but things like Athenian democracy, for example, should be appreciated both on their own terms and with some scholarly detachment as well. That is how reality works, it's not monolithic or rigidly predictable.

A good conworld should include belief systems, individuals and practices that go against the author's own; the most sophisticated ones (and yes, I am passing judgement on Tolkien here), should neither deprecate nor idolise these things unduly, but explore them.

[Izambri]

A good conworld should include belief systems, individuals and practices that go against the author's own; the most sophisticated ones (and yes, I am passing judgement on Tolkien here), should neither deprecate nor idolise these things unduly, but explore them.

That's one of the things that I like most in conworlding. When I was younger, in my first days as a conlanger, I began with a culture (the Hellesans) made to measure; not that it was perfect and boring, but it was (it still is) a society in which I could live. Later I filled my conworld with other nations and beliefs that I don't like much or that go against my ideas; with characters that could be labelled as antiheroes or perfect villains; and dystopian societies, because I need variety in my world in order to make it realistic (one of my main goals in any level of my conworlding).
Well, many times I've found more fun and entertaintment developing those negative elements than my Hellesans, and now I love my other dystopian nations, characters and beliefs as I like Hellesans.

[Aurora Rossa]

A good conworld should include belief systems, individuals and practices that go against the author's own; the most sophisticated ones (and yes, I am passing judgement on Tolkien here), should neither deprecate nor idolise these things unduly, but explore them.

Well, I do have plenty of societies in my conworld that run contrary to my own beliefs. STAV rejects many of the fundamentals of morality in favor of evolutionary fitness while the Jovian colonies are anarcho-capitalist and later a dictatorship. However, that hardly means I treat them in a purely neutral and objective manner. For me conworlding is an art form closely allied with writing (where value judgments abound) and not an exercise in fictional anthropology. I'm not saying everyone should work this way, but I don't see what makes a lack of objectivity in art unsophisticated in itself.

The real problem, I think, stems from treating the "bad" societies as simplistic reflections of the good, existing only to torment the good guys, rather than as free standing cultures in their own right. Few would call the USSR a just society, for example, but we can all agree it arose in a certain historical context, for reasons besides mindless bloodlust and sadism. Likewise, we shouldn't gloss over historical problems in the US like segregation or CIA backed coups in Latin America, even if we acknowledge it as better than the USSR.

On the other hand, this has given me a bit more understanding regarding the inclusion of the Elenicoi and Flaids. After all, my moral biases and Mark's Miracle of the Translation are both arguably unrealistic intrusions into other worlds, but both are justified by personal factors.

[kuroda]

Compared to the glaring and extensive similarity of Verdurian to certain European languages, and the other linguistic in-jokes, which really damage the "seriousness" of Almean autochthony to me (*), the business with the Greeks is piffling. It doesn't bother me at all.

How are the flaids as a species or civilization more frame-breaking or obviously silly than, say, the elkaril or the iliu? Have I been missing something all these years?

(* Don't get me wrong -- I love Almean linguistics. It's just that I adore it more for the approach (particularly the attention to syntax and pragmatics in recent years) and the quality of the presentation; it's hugely inspiring. The languages themselves, with a couple exceptions, aren't so much what makes my heart beat faster.)

[So Haleza Grise]

Compared to the glaring and extensive similarity of Verdurian to certain European languages, and the other linguistic in-jokes, which really damage the "seriousness" of Almean autochthony to me (*), the business with the Greeks is piffling. It doesn't bother me at all.

How are the flaids as a species or civilization more frame-breaking or obviously silly than, say, the elkaril or the iliu? Have I been missing something all these years?

(* Don't get me wrong -- I love Almean linguistics. It's just that I adore it more for the approach (particularly the attention to syntax and pragmatics in recent years) and the quality of the presentation; it's hugely inspiring. The languages themselves, with a couple exceptions, aren't so much what makes my heart beat faster.)

Don't forget that before Almea and the LCK came around, the *sole* example of non-European conlangs were either Klingon, or thought experiments like Lojban.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

Compared to the glaring and extensive similarity of Verdurian to certain European languages, and the other linguistic in-jokes, which really damage the "seriousness" of Almean autochthony to me (*), the business with the Greeks is piffling. It doesn't bother me at all.

How are the flaids as a species or civilization more frame-breaking or obviously silly than, say, the elkaril or the iliu? Have I been missing something all these years?

(* Don't get me wrong -- I love Almean linguistics. It's just that I adore it more for the approach (particularly the attention to syntax and pragmatics in recent years) and the quality of the presentation; it's hugely inspiring. The languages themselves, with a couple exceptions, aren't so much what makes my heart beat faster.)

Don't forget that before Almea and the LCK came around, the *sole* example of non-European conlangs were either Klingon, or thought experiments like Lojban.

Don't forget Tolkien's sketches about Khudzul, which definitely is not a European conlang (though it's still close to a real language.)

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

How are the flaids as a species or civilization more frame-breaking or obviously silly than, say, the elkaril or the iliu? Have I been missing something all these years?

Well, I had more problems with the flaids because their so involved in Verdurian history without influencing other regions. 4% of Northern (human) Eretald practices Irreanism. There is something about flaids I liked, but the fact their almost left out except for what seems details is annoying.

(Well I actually have problems with all non-uesti species in Almea. They all seem "out of history" somehow. But this happens a lot when people have a conworld with multiple spiecies. Tolkien was the only one who was able to create an history for three species without concentrating too much on only one. Though he did fail at some points.)

Mind you, Almea is extraordinarily detailed and well thought out. That detail alone makes it more ralistic than any other D&D world simply because it's forced Mark (can I call you Mark?) to delve into areas of biology and economics that other fantasy authors ignore. But he's never claimed to make something totally believable.

This is exactly why we can have such discussion about the Flaids, Ilii and the Elenicoi. He detailed enough so we can actually discuss about them with enough information (and point where we miss information). Perhaps this, over anything, makes Almea among the best conworlds.

I myself don't care the the external realism. The Elenicoi arrived by the Miracle of Translation or anything alike, and it suffices. Within Almea, it's reality, they are there, and they won't disappear because people inside it want them to disappear.

My questions are perhaps more internal : why don't they influence more. Externally it seems bogus, but internally, it can also be a good reflexion to have.

[kuroda]

Don't forget that before Almea and the LCK came around, the *sole* example of non-European conlangs were either Klingon, or thought experiments like Lojban.

Hardly. Just for starters, how about Tsolyani? Extremely detailed and non-IE conlanging and conworlding from, depending on what you believe, the early 1950s or the early 1970s; and in print since the late 1970s.

[Dewrad]

Tolkien was the only one who was able to create an history for three species without concentrating too much on only one.

This is probably because he didn't treat them as species, rather as (relatively homogenous) ethnic groups.

[Salmoneus]

Personally, I don't much care for the Elenicoi, or the Flaids, but that's a reflection of the fact that I don't like Almea. In fact, it's really quite irritating to me - because there's so much that would be wonderful, but it's infected by these aesthetically repellent elements like the Elenicoi. It's like reading the Lord of the Rings and having Bill and Ted and Samuel L Jackson appear at the last minute to defeat Sauron when Frodo fails. It would actually be good as a short story - but when the whole world and story have been presented with one tone, the sudden switch to a tone entirely different is very off-putting. It turns everything into a farce - and while there are some good reasons for doing this (I ahve to say this because one of the few stories I've completed is long, serious, and turns into a farce through a total shift in tone), but there should be reasons internal to the artwork for becoming farce. Otherwise it's boring old absurdism.


[I'm not saying this to get at Mark; indeed, I respect his ability (and patience) enormously. Just trying to explain my view, now that the discussion has wandered in that direction. To myself as much as anything, since it disappoints me that I'm not interested in Almea.]




On the point of species generally: I'm currently in a dilemma myself about the inclusion of non-human species. I'm going to do it - but is it 'realistic' to have any of them happen to be at a similar level of development to humans? Or should they all be neanderthals in the corners of the world? The former is an appealing challenge... but I also like the austerity of a human-dominated world.

[PyroKinetic]

I think there's a certain amount of (happy) suspension of disbelief required to include multiple sentient races of any form in a conworld, if only because we have no evidence on Earth that such an arrangement could work, since homo sapiens outcompeted all its rivals, and if there are any other sentient species on the planet, they are sufficiently untechnological as to make themselves not apparently so (although admittedly, one data point makes for a crappy test of a hypothesis).

Tucking away your australopithecines in a corner of the world might work, unless, as on Earth, the dominant sentient race doesn't spread to every corner of the globe before developing high technology (and even then, it would be tricky to avoid a Guns, Germs, and Steel kind of eradication of the competition--after all, if, say, Australia or America had been inhabited by nonhuman species instead of just other people, they would have been wiped out just the same).

If I had to theorize, I'd say that multiple sentient species would coexist best (or at least for the longest period) if they occupied different niches in the environment. Multiple hominids would be less plausible to me than a hominid and a cetacean coexistence, or a hominid species and a species that could flourish in an environment that was merely marginal for hominid life (like polar regions or large deserts). Though like any good artists, conlangers have to know when to break the rules of convention and probability for aesthetic purposes.