The Greeks

[GreenBowTie]

Were the Greeks who found themselves suddenly in Almea literate? I think it would be interesting to see how they would have written the Almean languages (for the life of me, I cannot remember if it was Verdurian or Cadhinor they came across).

[zompist]

Were the Greeks who found themselves suddenly in Almea literate? I think it would be interesting to see how they would have written the Almean languages (for the life of me, I cannot remember if it was Verdurian or Cadhinor they came across).

In between-- they encounted the Old Verdurian of about 600 years ago.

They would have been literate, yes... you're welcome to work out a transliteration of Verdurian into patristic Greek! (At that time, BTW, Verdurian <b>h</b> was still pronounced, as /h/.)

[Dudicon]

Were the Greeks who found themselves suddenly in Almea literate? I think it would be interesting to see how they would have written the Almean languages (for the life of me, I cannot remember if it was Verdurian or Cadhinor they came across).

In between-- they encounted the Old Verdurian of about 600 years ago.

They would have been literate, yes... you're welcome to work out a transliteration of Verdurian into patristic Greek! (At that time, BTW, Verdurian <b>h</b> was still pronounced, as /h/.)

Umm... what are we talking about here? I've never heard of this scenario, and it sounds very interesting. Could someone please fill me in on the details?

[So Haleza Grise]

Umm... what are we talking about here? I've never heard of this scenario, and it sounds very interesting. Could someone please fill me in on the details?

Better still, why don't you check out what happened in the Historical Atlas, in 2870

[hwhatting]

BTW, did the Ellenicoi bring some books with them? Especially a gospel? Or did they reconstruct the bible text they have according to the Verdurian grammr from memeory? Basically, I would not expect many books on a 4th century ship - in the end, manuscripts were expensive things. But if they had, was it a Tetra- or an Aprakos - Gospel text? And did they have any other texts, like the church fathers or maybe even some Plato or the Ilias?
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

[Dudicon]

Umm... what are we talking about here? I've never heard of this scenario, and it sounds very interesting. Could someone please fill me in on the details?

Better still, why don't you check out what happened in the Historical Atlas, in 2870

Just did and might I say, wow. In a good way and a bad way. I mean, I haven't really come across anything I don't like very much in Z's stuff, but I just can't see why this is necessary. In fact, it seems to me totally unprecedented, out of the blue, and extremely out of place in with the other Almea stuff. An interesting idea, but, still...

[zompist]

Just did and might I say, wow. In a good way and a bad way. I mean, I haven't really come across anything I don't like very much in Z's stuff, but I just can't see why this is necessary. In fact, it seems to me totally unprecedented, out of the blue, and extremely out of place in with the other Almea stuff. An interesting idea, but, still...

Eh, fantasy stories often involve someone from our world ending up in the fantasy world-- Narnia, Perelandra, Oz, Barsoom, Slumberland, Thomas Covenant, A Voyage to Arcturus.

Hans-Werner, I'm afraid I don't know what an Aprakos manuscript is. I tried a Google search, but nothing offered definitions. I've always assumed that the Elenicoi had a manuscript of the New Testament available, but little else, if anything.

[Dudicon]

Just did and might I say, wow. In a good way and a bad way. I mean, I haven't really come across anything I don't like very much in Z's stuff, but I just can't see why this is necessary. In fact, it seems to me totally unprecedented, out of the blue, and extremely out of place in with the other Almea stuff. An interesting idea, but, still...

Eh, fantasy stories often involve someone from our world ending up in the fantasy world-- Narnia, Perelandra, Oz, Barsoom, Slumberland, Thomas Covenant, A Voyage to Arcturus.

Eh, I know... I suppose mostly it just took me by surprise. Almea is by far the most developed, well thought-out, and realistic conworld I have ever come across, and this purely fantastic element just seemed so out of place. Well, nothing more than a conflict of tastes, I suppose. Like I said, though, a very interesting idea. By the way, a question: I inferred from the Atlas that the Greeks coming to Almea was unintentional (at least on the part of the Greeks themselves); however, there wasn't much to go on. Is this a correct assumption?

[zompist]

By the way, a question: I inferred from the Atlas that the Greeks coming to Almea was unintentional (at least on the part of the Greeks themselves); however, there wasn't much to go on. Is this a correct assumption?

Yes... if I ever write this story, I'd have fun with when exactly they realize they're on another planet. (The stars and moons would be a clue; but since they were sailing into the unknown southern hemisphere, some of them might have maintained that this didn't prove anything.)

[Dudicon]

By the way, a question: I inferred from the Atlas that the Greeks coming to Almea was unintentional (at least on the part of the Greeks themselves); however, there wasn't much to go on. Is this a correct assumption?

Yes... if I ever write this story, I'd have fun with when exactly they realize they're on another planet. (The stars and moons would be a clue; but since they were sailing into the unknown southern hemisphere, some of them might have maintained that this didn't prove anything.)

Heh, I never thought of that aspect. Conceivably, given the right circumstances, they might never realize they were on a different planet, or any of the Almeans either.

[Legros]

Hans-Werner, I'm afraid I don't know what an Aprakos manuscript is. I tried a Google search, but nothing offered definitions.

It seems that "aprakos" means "weekly - arranged for lecture and service". Below is a text I culled from the Internet.

Ecritures: Evangiles de deux types - tetras: Quatres Ap?tres; aprakos-hebdomadaire -arrang? pour lecture et service (l'Ancien Testament en traduction incompl?te jusqu'au XVIe s.); les plus importants: Evangile d'Ostromir, aprakos(1056-57), Evangile de Galitch, tetra (1144).

[hwhatting]

Hans-Werner, I'm afraid I don't know what an Aprakos manuscript is. I tried a Google search, but nothing offered definitions.

It seems that "aprakos" means "weekly - arranged for lecture and service". Below is a text I culled from the Internet.

Ecritures: Evangiles de deux types - tetras: Quatres Ap?tres; aprakos-hebdomadaire -arrang? pour lecture et service (l'Ancien Testament en traduction incompl?te jusqu'au XVIe s.); les plus importants: Evangile d'Ostromir, aprakos(1056-57), Evangile de Galitch, tetra (1144).

Sorry for leaving you with that puzzle and disconnecting for the weekend .
Legros is quite right. A Tetra-Gospel is the normal, full-text gospel as we know it. But much more frequent in medieval times was the Aprakos, which contained the gospel texts in the order in which they were used in the weekly church lectures. This means that the gospels were mixed (say, Luke V,1-7, then Mark, II 5-9, then again Luke VI, 7-12 - no, don't go checking your bibles, I just made these up for illustration), some verses occur two times, and parts of the gospels not forming part of the lecture cycle are left out. They were the gospel texts a priest normally had, and e.g., the original Old Church Slavonic gospel translation by Cyril and Method was an Aprakos (of which the Ostromir gospel quoted by Legros is a descendant). Later on, these were filled up (probably already by disciples) to the OCS Tera-gospels as we have them in the Marianus and Zographensis codices.
(Well, I did my master thesis on a topic related to the OCS gospel texts, that's why I'm interested in these questions).
So, the probability would be quite high that the Ellenicoi had an Aprakos, which would mean that the Eledhe don't have the full gospel texts.
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

[zompist]

So, the probability would be quite high that the Ellenicoi had an Aprakos, which would mean that the Eledhe don't have the full gospel texts.

Thanks for the explanation. Would this apply to late Classical times, however? The Elenicoi left around 325.

[hwhatting]

Thanks for the explanation. Would this apply to late Classical times, however? The Elenicoi left around 325.

IIRC, the composition of the Aprakos gospels (lectionarium in the Latin tradition) began in the 3rd/4th century, in connection with a standardisation of the liturgy, to ensure that the official lecture cycle was adhered to. I don't know when they became really obligatory, so for such an early date I think I have to modify what I said - the probability for the Elenicoi having an Aprakos would not have been much bigger than the probability of having a Tetra.
BTW, did you give any thoughts to the question of the original Greek text? At that time, there was still a lot of - often substantial - variations in the texts, and there were not yet obligatory church-wide texts like the Vulgata or the Byzantine Imperial text.
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

[zompist]

BTW, did you give any thoughts to the question of the original Greek text? At that time, there was still a lot of - often substantial - variations in the texts, and there were not yet obligatory church-wide texts like the Vulgata or the Byzantine Imperial text.

It hasn't really come up... if I translate NT texts, I have to use an English version anyway, though Philip Newton has translated some texts from the Greek.

Would any interesting heresies appear in the alternate manuscripts?

[hwhatting]

It hasn't really come up... if I translate NT texts, I have to use an English version anyway, though Philip Newton has translated some texts from the Greek.

Would any interesting heresies appear in the alternate manuscripts?

Now, AFAIK there is certainly nothing really spicey (like "Jesus was not the Messiah" or "God is a Woman" or "Blessed are the Greedy" ). But there are interesting differences; IIRC, there are versions, e.g., where the beginning chapters of Luke were left out as they were seen as too pro-Jewish. And then choices of words can be blown up to big theological disputes; just as an example, see this discussion I found on the web:
http://www.geocities.com/bogomil1bg/wycliffe.html
(This is about how a difference in the Latin translation of a Greek term in the lord's prayer came to be seen as a sign of heresy, not about variations in the Greek text itself, but I think it illustrates how such differences can become important - and this happened also with the text variations in the original texts.)
Most modern translations of the gospels (and so probably also the English text you use) are based on attempts to reconstruct the "original" Greek text from the variants, which are based on philological and theological considerations. Therefor, these texts normally deviate from the old manuscripts, as they are based on a comparison of all relevant manuscripts.
Being from Arsinoe, the Ellenicoi at that time probably had a text belonging to the Alexandrian text family. For more details, I can recommend Aland's introduction into the history of the New Testament's text, (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ce&s=books); for checking variants, his "Synopsis Quattuor Evangeliorum". (These were the sources I used for my Master's thesis).
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

[eodrakken]

Would any interesting heresies appear in the alternate manuscripts? :)

I recall reading that in some alternative manuscripts, Mary Magdalene has a lot more to do -- more conversations with Jesus about the role of women in society. Does anyone know if there's anything to this?

[hwhatting]

I recall reading that in some alternative manuscripts, Mary Magdalene has a lot more to do -- more conversations with Jesus about the role of women in society. Does anyone know if there's anything to this?

I certainly did not encounter such things when I was looking up text variants to fit to the OCS translation. Mostly, the variations comprise differences in wording, some extra sentences or verses, or some parts being left out - my impression is that the versions we have nowadays seem to err more on the side of inclusion than of exclusion. But maybe you are not referring to text variants, but to some of the apocryphal books, like the gospel of Thomas? I do not know much about their content.
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

[eodrakken]

But maybe you are not referring to text variants, but to some of the apocryphal books, like the gospel of Thomas? I do not know much about their content.

The Gospel of Thomas, that was it. I don't know much about it either, it was something I read about in passing.

[Penelope]

I've read the Gospel of Thomas, though it was some time ago and I don't remember it all that well. It's mostly just a collection of sayings attributed to Jesus, not arranged into any sort of narrative; I certainly don't remember any major dialogues with Mary Magdalen, although various disciples do make brief cameo appearances. There are some freaky bits about the role of women, most notably the part where one of the disciples asks Jesus to send Mary away because women are unworthy, and Jesus replies with something like, "Don't worry, I'll teach her to become male, so that she can be a living spirit like the rest of you; every female who is willing to become male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

(First post since the board returned! Welcome back, everyone.)

[GreenBowTie]

Were the Greeks who found themselves suddenly in Almea literate? I think it would be interesting to see how they would have written the Almean languages (for the life of me, I cannot remember if it was Verdurian or Cadhinor they came across).

In between-- they encounted the Old Verdurian of about 600 years ago.

They would have been literate, yes... you're welcome to work out a transliteration of Verdurian into patristic Greek! (At that time, BTW, Verdurian <b>h</b> was still pronounced, as /h/.)

So, uh, five years later, I gave it a shot.

p: π
b: ββ
t: τ
d: δδ
c: κ
g: γ
k: κκ
f: φ
v: β
dh/ď: δ
s: σ
z: ζ
kh/h': χ
h: spiritus asper on following vowel; hosol: ὁσολ
m: μ
n: ν
l: λ
r: ρ
y: ι
a: α
e: ε
i: ι
o: ο
u: ου
zh/ž: ζζ
î: ι
ö: οε
rh/ř: ρρ
ch/č: ττ
sh/š: σσ

I probably messed a lot of stuff up, and I'm not especially familiar with Old Verdurian, but there you go. It's based on late Koine Greek and what I could figure out of Old Verdurian phonology from the sound change chart.

If I could get an example text, I could probably demonstrate this a bit better.[/url]

[Drydic]

Holy thread necromancy Batman!

[brandrinn]

Some thoughts about the transliteration:

1) Is this based on modern pronunciation or late classical? Did the Greeks of the third century already pronounce beta as /B/?

2) Perhaps <rh> could be represented by rho plus the spiritus asper on the following vowel.

3) No shit about the necromancy. who in the blue blazes is Penelope?

[nebula wind phone]

2) Perhaps <rh> could be represented by rho plus the spiritus asper on the following vowel.

If you're going for a "voiceless-r-type" sound, I'd use <ῥ> initially and <ρρ> medially. Both were something like [r_0] Classically, and retained that pronunciation at least partway into the Koine era.

Also, nowadays you'd be more likely to see <μπ ντ γκ> for the voiced stops. But I don't know when /mp nt Nk/ went to /b d g/ and made those spellings possible. It may have been too late for Zomp's Greek travelers.

[eodrakken]

Seeing this was very, very weird. I have no recollection of posting what I said here, or of ever reading the things I apparently have read about the Gospel of Thomas...