Soa ulechea

[eodrakken]

Tenao cuesi. (Or is it "U sen e cuesi"? What's the difference?)

I read that the Verdurians have advanced the theory of evolution (ulechea). How complex is this theory? Do they have an idea of what the uesti family tree looks like? Have they found pre-human remains? I know the ic?lani are described as australopithecine-like; have they really been around that long?

I'm also curious about where humans originated on Almea, both what the Verdurians think and what Mark knows the truth to be. I've learned to stop asking why the level of human civilisation and the duration of human habitation in a given area don't seem to correlate on Earth -- it's too touchy a subject for most people. But I'd like to hear what Mark decided for Almea, and why.

[zompist]

Tenao cuesi. (Or is it "U sen e cuesi"? What's the difference?)

It's about the same as the difference between "I have questions" and "I've got questions"... which is, in this case, not much. In other contexts the difference would be greater. "Tenao..." emphasizes the ownership; "U sen..." emphasizes one's power over the object, or its immediate availability. "Tenao kuna" is a rather abstract statement; "U sen e kuna" implies that you've got it right there-- it's burning a hole in your pocket.

I read that the Verdurians have advanced the theory of evolution (ulechea). How complex is this theory? Do they have an idea of what the uesti family tree looks like? Have they found pre-human remains? I know the ic?lani are described as australopithecine-like; have they really been around that long?

They're not really into paleontology yet. The main elements of the theory are:

1. traditional reflections on the similarity of body plan among various animals
2. realizing that artificial selection (the usual Verdurian metaphor is breeding horses or flowers) could account for biological development
3. a better understanding of the shipomi (sea ancestors of humanoids), thanks to more experience at sea
4. consideration of biological data coming in from T?llinor, Arc?l, and other new places, including the idea that in an isolated area, a narrow biological line could evolve to fill many niches.

In a sense the Verdurians haven't yet realized all the implications of the theory. They're mostly busy trying to turn the catalogs of nature they already had into evolutionary trees, and fighting over such issues as the inheritance of acquired characteristics. Very few derive any atheistic conclusions yet.

I'm also curious about where humans originated on Almea, both what the Verdurians think and what Mark knows the truth to be. I've learned to stop asking why the level of human civilisation and the duration of human habitation in a given area don't seem to correlate on Earth -- it's too touchy a subject for most people. But I'd like to hear what Mark decided for Almea, and why.

The Cuzeians (and thus the Arashei and Eledhi after them) maintained that humans were created in Rh?n, the plateau west of the Plain. The Cadhinorians had several origin stories, but they believed that they had always lived in the Plain.

As to 'the truth', I'm really not sure yet. I'm pretty sure it's in the southern hemisphere, but I don't know what continent. I'm also pretty sure I won't pick eastern Erel?e; that would be a bit boring.

By the way, your avatar is very nice.

[eodrakken]

4. consideration of biological data coming in from T?llinor, Arc?l, and other new places, including the idea that in an isolated area, a narrow biological line could evolve to fill many niches.

How far have Verdurian ships actually travelled? Have they visited every continent, or is there still a new world or two to discover...?

Very few derive any atheistic conclusions yet.

Interesting. Personally, I never understood how the theory of evolution leads to atheistic thinking. It's a long way from believing life changes over time to believing life came from nothing. Might it worry the Eledhi more, since their tradition includes Genesis? (It does, doesn't it?)

The Cuzeians (and thus the Arashei and Eledhi after them) maintained that humans were created in Rh?n, the plateau west of the Plain. The Cadhinorians had several origin stories, but they believed that they had always lived in the Plain.

Since modern Verdurians know about Proto-Eastern, I wonder if the scientifically-minded might suspect P-E's cradleland to be the origin point of mankind, or close by there at any rate.

By the way, your avatar is very nice.

D?kuy. It's actually a character in the syllabary of one of my conlangs. The syllable is lu, and the picture is of a stylised dragon-like being.

[zompist]

How far have Verdurian ships actually travelled? Have they visited every continent, or is there still a new world or two to discover...?

They're certainly been to all the continents of the southern hemisphere. There are occasional crossings to the north (it's nothing you can rely on), so there is definitely knowledge of the Bekkayin states (northern Erel?e), and some of northern Curym. They've never reached Lebiscuri (the name is really an anachronism from the future).

Interesting. Personally, I never understood how the theory of evolution leads to atheistic thinking. It's a long way from believing life changes over time to believing life came from nothing. Might it worry the Eledhi more, since their tradition includes Genesis? (It does, doesn't it?)

It does, but our Old Testament isn't considered canonical, and frankly it's not read much. The Count of Years mentions the creation of plants and animals, but it explicitly mentions that I?inos worked through intermediaries, so that concept really doesn't bother the Eledhi much.

Evolution doesn't of course imply atheism; but it undercuts one of the best arguments for theism, the argument from design. Once people see that some things that used to require supernatural explanations don't need them any more, some of them will wonder if other supernatural explanations are unnecessary as well.

[eodrakken]

They've never reached Lebiscuri (the name is really an anachronism from the future).

As an aside, I'd prefer to live in a world that wasn't completely mapped yet. The idea of finding new, unknown people is very exciting, and it looks like it's going to be a while before we find new beings outside Earth.

Evolution doesn't of course imply atheism; but it undercuts one of the best arguments for theism, the argument from design. Once people see that some things that used to require supernatural explanations don't need them any more, some of them will wonder if other supernatural explanations are unnecessary as well.

True. Those doubts could come from many places as science advances; I suppose it's a matter of the structure of the dominant religion which new ideas seem most likely to promote atheism. Many religions hinge on observations not of nature's design, but of the seemingly inexplicable activities of the human mind. In a culture where dreams and insanity are explained by the existence of a higher plane, the development of psychology and neurology might seem blasphemous, as much as Darwin's ideas did to Christian Europeans.

By the way, since you mentioned avatars... I can't figure out what yours is supposed to be. Is it an explosion, or some kind of firebird, or what?

[zompist]

As an aside, I'd prefer to live in a world that wasn't completely mapped yet. The idea of finding new, unknown people is very exciting, and it looks like it's going to be a while before we find new beings outside Earth.

Sure... I think it's no accident that for a few centuries Western literature has been filled with quests and adventures. Older science fiction also had this sense of endless possibilities, which you can't get away with any more, any more than you can hide a Roman legion in the Amazon.

One of the best routes still open to us is to explore unfamiliar cultures. I haven't yet got tired of learning things about China, for instance.

In a culture where dreams and insanity are explained by the existence of a higher plane, the development of psychology and neurology might seem blasphemous, as much as Darwin's ideas did to Christian Europeans.

Nice idea.

By the way, since you mentioned avatars... I can't figure out what yours is supposed to be. Is it an explosion, or some kind of firebird, or what?

It's an explosion. (It's an icon from my Civ2 scenario, redrawn a bit-- a missile-like spell.)

[eodrakken]

One of the best routes still open to us is to explore unfamiliar cultures. I haven't yet got tired of learning things about China, for instance.

For sure. American education is so badly impoverished in this area that tons of people grow up knowning absolutely nothing about, say, Australian aborigines, who happen to have fascinating ways of looking at the world. I hope anyone who's looking forward to meeting aliens is also learning everything they can about the cultures of our own planet, especially those that are in the process of disappearing.

And of course, the human desire to learn about more kinds of people is also sometimes manifested by inventing them yourself. ;>

Thanks, Mark, for your excellent responses.

[Ran]

One of the best routes still open to us is to explore unfamiliar cultures. I haven't yet got tired of learning things about China, for instance.

And as for me, I like to compare Western and Eastern cultures. There are differences in areas that you wouldn't expect, for instance... and yet, all the areas that you would expect to be different are very similar... I hope I'm making sense here.

[Wirrit]

And as for me, I like to compare Western and Eastern cultures. There are differences in areas that you wouldn't expect, for instance... and yet, all the areas that you would expect to be different are very similar... I hope I'm making sense here.

Yes indeed

My favorite little quirk between eastern and western thought (or at least between idaho and half the anime I've seen) is that a lot of the time in eastern fiction, sci-fi stories, and whatever, they have extremely different levels of technological advancement: A traditional farmer inheriting his father's laser-sword, etc. In western culture we tend to assume an even distribution of technology....

And that 'newer is better'.

I could be entirely wrong though... Has anyone else noticed that type of thing?

[Iscun]

They've never reached Lebiscuri (the name is really an anachronism from the future).

Ooh. You've once again sparked my insatiable curiosity of the other continents.

I guess you don't have much done on Lebiscuri (or the most interesting one - Palthuknen ). I imagine that it (Leb.) could be a future spot for large Verdurian/Kebreni colonies. Much like the Americas were for Western Europeans. Though, they'd have to fight through the tiny Ktuvoki empires first.

Also, from where did the names of the continents derive?

[Ran]

My favorite little quirk between eastern and western thought (or at least between idaho and half the anime I've seen) is that a lot of the time in eastern fiction, sci-fi stories, and whatever, they have extremely different levels of technological advancement: A traditional farmer inheriting his father's laser-sword, etc. In western culture we tend to assume an even distribution of technology....

Well, I assure you, that exists only in Japanese anime

Chinese culture doesn't contain "fantasy" as a genre. "Mythology" yes, "historical" yes, "fairy tales" yes, but usually not "fantasy".

In fact, I couldn't even explain fantasy to my cousin. "Elves", "dwarves", "orcs", all these were totally untranslatable. I could only end up saying that "it fills the same role as sci-fi and martial arts stories," and he understood that.

And that brings me to the next point... martial arts literature is huge in China, Taiwan, HK, Singapore, and any other place with Chinese living there. It's not just people flying through the air - it's a lot more like the Western genre of fantasy. As far as I can see, they're all about young boys who're born orphans and have sad childhoods but, through luck, manage to learn superhuman skills, and conveniently, meets a nice girl along the way, and together, they travel here and there and meet a lot of weird characters, and then they defeat evil heroically, and end up living happily ever after. Very much like paperback fantasy, except that it's set in some ancient Chinese dynasty or the other.

[zompist]

I'm currently reading Journey to the West, a classic Chinese mythological/historical/martial arts/adventure story. I'm not sure if I'll ever finish, since it's in four large volumes, and after a point it seems to get rather repetitive. Still, it's fascinating to see the storytelling techniques-- I've borrowed some of them for the Count of Years.

I wonder if it's significant that the classic Western stories told in the Middle Ages-- those of Troy, Arthur, and Roland-- were all elaborations on war stories, while Journey to the West is an elaboration of a very different story: a scholar's trip to India to pick up a few hundred scrolls of Buddhist doctrine. Of course, before deciding that the Chinese are more intellectual, we should note that most of the elaborations involve fighting of one sort or another.

And Iscun, I don't know yet where the continent names come from, except for Lebiscuri, which is Verdurian for 'New Lands'.

[eodrakken]

My favorite little quirk between eastern and western thought (or at least between idaho and half the anime I've seen) is that a lot of the time in eastern fiction, sci-fi stories, and whatever, they have extremely different levels of technological advancement: A traditional farmer inheriting his father's laser-sword, etc. In western culture we tend to assume an even distribution of technology....

And that 'newer is better'.

I could be entirely wrong though... Has anyone else noticed that type of thing?

Yes, definitely. That's something I really enjoy about anime. I think it's just good storytelling to have aspects the viewer is familiar with from their own life alongside the new stuff. In the future, sure we'll have spaceships and laser swords -- but we'll still be zoning out in front of the TV, and working on the farm, and having the same human emotions and experiences we've always had. At least, that's what I get out of it.

To bring this back around to something topical, a common theme of my invented worlds is how new ways and old ways collide and fit together. I rarely invent a culture where newer is just better. And I'm an American. A Californian, at that. :>

[Ran]

I'm currently reading Journey to the West, a classic Chinese mythological/historical/martial arts/adventure story. I'm not sure if I'll ever finish, since it's in four large volumes, and after a point it seems to get rather repetitive...

Probably a reason why I never managed to read it from beginning to end...

Still, it's fascinating to see the storytelling techniques-- I've borrowed some of them for the Count of Years.

I wonder if it's significant that the classic Western stories told in the Middle Ages-- those of Troy, Arthur, and Roland-- were all elaborations on war stories, while Journey to the West is an elaboration of a very different story: a scholar's trip to India to pick up a few hundred scrolls of Buddhist doctrine. Of course, before deciding that the Chinese are more intellectual, we should note that most of the elaborations involve fighting of one sort or another.

As a sort of context, the 4 "Greatest Works of Classical Chinese Literature", as popularly accepted, are:

Dream of Red Mansions - about the lives of several rich families and their various spoiled sons and daughters
Outlaws of the Marsh - a few heroic protagonists who were forced by their circumstances to become outlaws, lots of fighting
Romance of the Three Kingdoms - about an era of confused civil war in China (189AD-280AD), basically a story about politicians and generals
Journey to the West - which is what you're reading

So actually, out of these 4 books, only 1 is about intellectual pursuits. This is exactly what I meant when I say that cultures may be more similar than you think.

[Raphael]

Dream of Red Mansions - about the lives of several rich families and their various spoiled sons and daughters

What, one of the most important works of Chinese literature is about the spoiled children of rich families? Don't Asian leaders always claim that the whole phenomenom of people being spoiled and thus acting like spoiled people is a completely Western thing?

[Ran]

Dream of Red Mansions - about the lives of several rich families and their various spoiled sons and daughters

What, one of the most important works of Chinese literature is about the spoiled children of rich families? Don't Asian leaders always claim that the whole phenomenom of people being spoiled and thus acting like spoiled people is a completely Western thing?

Well, that's my perception of it, of course.

From a more scholarly point of view, this great work of literature centers on the intrigue and relations between several rich families and their eventual downfalls. It's supposed to reveal something about society etc etc.

As for the spoiled people thingy - the only reason Westerners are "spoiled" is because they're richer. Actually, I don't see how China's children nowadays are any less spoiled. As a result of the one-child policy, an entire generation of Chinese kids have grown up totally used to having every whim and desire fulfilled by their anxious parents.

[So Haleza Grise]

Ah yes. The japanese television series version, called "Monkey" is most definitely a cult classic over here. The poor dubbing and amusing plotlines make this beloved of uni-students everywhere .

The power of Monkey was . . . irrepressible!

the actor who played Tripitaka was a woman . . . . most confusing initially.

Anyway, errr, relevance to Almea . . . well i guess it's a good way to show that popularised religious stories can certainly take a hold on a culture's imagination - (given that the series was also popular in Japan). A similar thing, really, to the epics in Cuezian culture. Very inspiring to the populace, no doubt, but it's unlikely any that the religious overtones made much of an imprint.

also cf. Don Quixote and its vicious satire of the besotted followers of tales of knightly prowess.

--Rhisto Filipei

[Drydic]

TO: Zomp

I'm not sure whoere to put this, but did you know that the Old English word for famous was hroth? I'm guessing that you didn't, but it could be a meaning switch (afterall, Hroth is about as remote to the general lineage of Almea as you can get! {yes, I realize the're close to the Elcari, but how about we just ignore that for now?})

Also- When you say that the Cadhinor and Cuz?i Grammars on your FTP site are "somewhat out of date" , what exactly do you mean? Any grammar changes? (vocab is a no-brainer.) And, are the changes likely to be found in the Proto-Eastern file?

floatlng somewhere over Chile,

ME!