Verdurian words that look like Finnish words

KHS · Post by **KHS** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:33 am

Here are some Verdurian words that look like Finnish words. The meanings are the same in both languages.

Verdurian word 'meaning' - Finnish word [Finnish pronunciation]:

tyurma 'prison' - tyrm? ["tyr.m{]
v?reca 'danger' - vaara ["vA:.rA]
bol? 'much' - paljon ["pAl.jon]
dhash 'pocket' - tasku ["tAs.ku]
dh?se 'flat' - tasa- ["tA.sA] (the Finnish equivalent is a prefix and can't be used alone)
cardhise 'curved' - kaareva ["kA:.re.vA]
fali?l 'light (adjective)' - vaalea ["v\A:.le.A]

This list is just for fun. And I'm just a newbie. Don't expect too much from me.

Edit: pronunciations fixed.

ketske · Post by **ketske** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 2:46 am

Welcome to teh ZBB!

Discussion of pickles is now a hangin' crime, so, not much else but to say,

HAVE FUN

and

Don't eat anything unless you want to and you're sure it's safe!

but mostly the first one.

insumaro · Post by **insumaro** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:39 am

That's pretty interesting, but I think most of Zomp's influences came from Slavic langs for Verdurian. Tho' I could be mistaken. Regardless, welcome to the board!

We have a lot of Finns on this board, I believe you're number 8. So you should feel right at home. If you're a geek or a pervert, even better!

Redemptio · Post by **Redemptio** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 12:59 pm

I'd love to know if those are taken from Finnish (esp. tyurma) or pure coincidence...

and of course, hi! pickles... we love pickles

Pentekonter wrote:We have a lot of Finns on this board, I believe you're number 8. So you should feel right at home. If you're a geek or a pervert, even better!

From what I've experienced so far, isn't everyone either or both (especially those who like to conlang

)?

Jaaaaaa · Post by **Jaaaaaa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:46 pm

Redemptio wrote:I'd love to know if those are taken from Finnish (esp. tyurma) or pure coincidence...

and of course, hi! pickles... we love pickles

Pentekonter wrote:We have a lot of Finns on this board, I believe you're number 8. So you should feel right at home. If you're a geek or a pervert, even better!
From what I've experienced so far, isn't everyone either or both (especially those who like to conlang )?

I'm a geek, but not a pervert. 'Least not in a sexual way

Welcome to the ZBB! Have fun, and eat lots of pickles!

ketske · Post by **ketske** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:53 pm

*hangs Jaaaaa and symbolically places a phallic-looking pickle in the corpse's mouth*

Jaaaaaa · Post by **Jaaaaaa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:55 pm

ketske wrote:*hangs Jaaaaa and symbolically places a phallic-looking pickle in the corpse's mouth*

At least you didn't castrate me like last time

ketske · Post by **ketske** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:56 pm

Damnit, stop stealing my chefasco!

Jaaaaaa · Post by **Jaaaaaa** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

ketske wrote:Damnit, stop stealing my chefasco!

Never!

ketske · Post by **ketske** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:58 pm

Die!

I'd post the pic, but...

Shm Jay · Post by **Shm Jay** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:29 pm

ketske wrote:Damnit, stop stealing my chefasco!

Hey, someone else is using my word! Double chefasco for me!

We can add chefasco to the FAQ

Shm Jay · Post by **Shm Jay** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:31 pm

PM_Vanhanen wrote:Here are some Verdurian words that look like Finnish words.

That shows that the original Finns were conquered by people from Almea, who of course died out because they were not interfertile, but not before passing down their language.

ketske · Post by **ketske** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:03 pm

Drydic · Post by **Drydic** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:33 pm

Shm Jay wrote:
PM_Vanhanen wrote:Here are some Verdurian words that look like Finnish words.
That shows that the original Finns were conquered by people from Almea, who of course died out because they were not interfertile, but not before passing down their language.

This explains a great many things. I can't tell anyone here, tho, 'cause then I'd have to castrate a pickle in their presence.

Oric · Post by **Oric** » Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:29 pm

Yes! Welcome- I would say something in Finnish, but I don't know much.

But yes, pickles are a very good thing.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:15 am

Since no one other than Pentekonter has commented on the original question:

It's true that Mark sometimes borrows words from Earthly languages into the vocabulary of his conlangs (for example, he noted that part of the vocabulary of Flaidish comes from Hungarian, albeit suitably altered), although a great deal is also invented and extrapolated from scratch--don't think that he's mostly a borrower!

In the case of Verdurian, Mark has indicated that when he first created the language, back in the late 1970s, he borrowed many words from French and Russian, the languages he knew best at the time, and from elsewhere as well. I don't know about Finnish, however, but I don't think it was a major element. (As a student of Russian, I can say that many of the Russian words in Verdurian jump right out for me when I see them.)

Of the words mentioned above, tyurma is almost certainly from Russian--the spelling even matches one of the most common transliterations of the Russian form (тюрма, tyurma -- I suspect that the Finnish word is itself borrowed from Russian or vice versa). I can't speak for the others--there may well be some Finnish influence, but in some cases, the words in questions really aren't all that similar (bol? vs. paljon, for example), so I wouldn't necessarily rule out coincidence, either--such things do happen, and more often than one might think. Only Mark can say for sure...

p@,
Glenn

Post by **zompist** » Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:29 am

Tyurma is definitely from Russian, though perhaps Russian borrowed it from Finnish.

V?reca is probably Germanic, but I'm having trouble finding the source. Finnish vaara is definitely a possibility, but so is Dutch gevaar.

The others are chance resemblances, I'm afraid. Bol? is a back-formation from Russian bol'shoy, and I'm pretty sure the rest are inventions.

hwhatting · Post by **hwhatting** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:24 am

zompist wrote:Tyurma is definitely from Russian, though perhaps Russian borrowed it from Finnish.

I can't check now, but I assume that Russian tyurma is a loan from a Germanic language (e.g. German Turm "tower" - towers were often used as prisons; cf. German Schuldturm - "debtors' prison"). Based on which languages Russian mostly borrowed words from, I would suspect German, Dutch, or Swedish (in that order).

Finnish either borrowed the word from Russian, or from the same Germanic source.
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

Post by **zompist** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 10:14 am

hwhatting wrote:I can't check now, but I assume that Russian tyurma is a loan from a Germanic language (e.g. German Turm "tower" - towers were often used as prisons; cf. German Schuldturm - "debtors' prison"). Based on which languages Russian mostly borrowed words from, I would suspect German, Dutch, or Swedish (in that order).

Good to see you around again, Hans-Werner.

Any ideas on where the y comes from? That seems like an odd development.

hwhatting · Post by **hwhatting** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:30 pm

zompist wrote:
Good to see you around again, Hans-Werner.

Thanks. I'm on a new posting that didn't leave me much time for conlanging or board visits at the start, that's why I was absent for a while.

zompist wrote:Any ideas on where the y comes from? That seems like an odd development.

'yu' normally renders German '?', so the word may be borrowed from a form with umlaut - the plural T?rme or the diminutive T?rmchen contain it. The Russian borrowing might be from a dialect form which had the umlaut in the singular analogically. I'll check my etymological dictionary as soon as I'll unpack my books. Does anyone know the Dutch or Swedish words for "prison" or tower" off-hand?
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

Miekko · Post by **Miekko** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 12:56 pm

hwhatting wrote:
zompist wrote:
Good to see you around again, Hans-Werner.
Thanks. I'm on a new posting that didn't leave me much time for conlanging or board visits at the start, that's why I was absent for a while.

zompist wrote:Any ideas on where the y comes from? That seems like an odd development.
'yu' normally renders German '?', so the word may be borrowed from a form with umlaut - the plural T?rme or the diminutive T?rmchen contain it. The Russian borrowing might be from a dialect form which had the umlaut in the singular analogically. I'll check my etymological dictionary as soon as I'll unpack my books. Does anyone know the Dutch or Swedish words for "prison" or tower" off-hand?
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

Swedish:
tower: torn /t_hurn/
(prison: f?ngelse, tho' there might be some others, but none that is relevant)

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 12:22 am

Before I head out for the time being, I wanted to add my greetings to Zomp's:

Salem, Hans-Werner! It's good to see you here once again; it feels like a long time since your last visit...

I hope that your new posting is going well, and that things have been good both for you and for your family. Feel free to drop in when you have the time.

Sau bol,
Glenn

Åge Kruger · Post by **Åge Kruger** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:25 am

The Dutch word for tower is "toren", and the word for prison is "gevangenis", from the verb "vangen", to capture or catch.

hwhatting · Post by **hwhatting** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:46 am

Glenn Kempf wrote:Before I head out for the time being, I wanted to add my greetings to Zomp's:

Salem, Hans-Werner! It's good to see you here once again; it feels like a long time since your last visit...

I hope that your new posting is going well, and that things have been good both for you and for your family. Feel free to drop in when you have the time.

Sau bol,
Glenn

Rakhmet, Glenn. Good to see you're still actively on board!
Work is going reasonably well, and my family is fine.
I'll look regularly at the Almea part of the board - it's easy to keep up with, as traffic is lower than in the other fora, - and I'll browse the other fora now and then. If you (or anyone else on the board) would like to contact me or would have a question that I could answer, drop me a PM, so I won't miss it.
Sau bol,
Hans-Werner

hwhatting · Post by **hwhatting** » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:54 am

?ge Kruger wrote:The Dutch word for tower is "toren", and the word for prison is "gevangenis", from the verb "vangen", to capture or catch.

So it seems neither the Dutch nor the Swedish word contains an umlaut; that'd mean we have to look to a non-standard German form as the culprit.
BTW, the German word for "prison" is Gef?ngnis - so it's basically the same as in Dutch.
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

zompist bboard

Verdurian words that look like Finnish words

Verdurian words that look like Finnish words

Re: Verdurian words that look like Finnish words

Re: Verdurian words that look like Finnish words

Re: Verdurian words that look like Finnish words

Re: Verdurian words that look like Finnish words

Re: Verdurian words that look like Finnish words

Re: Verdurian words that look like Finnish words

Re: Verdurian words that look like Finnish words