zompist bboard

Here are some Verdurian words that look like Finnish words. The meanings are the same in both languages.

Verdurian word 'meaning' - Finnish word [Finnish pronunciation]:

tyurma 'prison' - tyrm? ["tyr.m{]
v?reca 'danger' - vaara ["vA:.rA]
bol? 'much' - paljon ["pAl.jon]
dhash 'pocket' - tasku ["tAs.ku]
dh?se 'flat' - tasa- ["tA.sA] (the Finnish equivalent is a prefix and can't be used alone)
cardhise 'curved' - kaareva ["kA:.re.vA]
fali?l 'light (adjective)' - vaalea ["v\A:.le.A]

This list is just for fun. And I'm just a newbie. Don't expect too much from me.

Edit: pronunciations fixed.

Welcome to teh ZBB!

Discussion of pickles is now a hangin' crime, so, not much else but to say,


HAVE FUN

and

Don't eat anything unless you want to and you're sure it's safe!


but mostly the first one.

That's pretty interesting, but I think most of Zomp's influences came from Slavic langs for Verdurian. Tho' I could be mistaken. Regardless, welcome to the board!

We have a lot of Finns on this board, I believe you're number 8. So you should feel right at home. If you're a geek or a pervert, even better!

I'd love to know if those are taken from Finnish (esp. tyurma) or pure coincidence...

and of course, hi! pickles... we love pickles

Pentekonter wrote:We have a lot of Finns on this board, I believe you're number 8. So you should feel right at home. If you're a geek or a pervert, even better!

From what I've experienced so far, isn't everyone either or both (especially those who like to conlang )?

Redemptio wrote:I'd love to know if those are taken from Finnish (esp. tyurma) or pure coincidence...

and of course, hi! pickles... we love pickles

Pentekonter wrote:We have a lot of Finns on this board, I believe you're number 8. So you should feel right at home. If you're a geek or a pervert, even better!

From what I've experienced so far, isn't everyone either or both (especially those who like to conlang )?

I'm a geek, but not a pervert. 'Least not in a sexual way

Welcome to the ZBB! Have fun, and eat lots of pickles!

*hangs Jaaaaa and symbolically places a phallic-looking pickle in the corpse's mouth*

ketske wrote:*hangs Jaaaaa and symbolically places a phallic-looking pickle in the corpse's mouth*

At least you didn't castrate me like last time

Damnit, stop stealing my chefasco!

ketske wrote:Damnit, stop stealing my chefasco!

Never!

Die!

I'd post the pic, but...

ketske wrote:Damnit, stop stealing my chefasco!

Hey, someone else is using my word! Double chefasco for me! We can add chefasco to the FAQ

PM_Vanhanen wrote:Here are some Verdurian words that look like Finnish words.

That shows that the original Finns were conquered by people from Almea, who of course died out because they were not interfertile, but not before passing down their language.

duh!

Shm Jay wrote:

PM_Vanhanen wrote:Here are some Verdurian words that look like Finnish words.

That shows that the original Finns were conquered by people from Almea, who of course died out because they were not interfertile, but not before passing down their language.

This explains a great many things. I can't tell anyone here, tho, 'cause then I'd have to castrate a pickle in their presence.

Yes! Welcome- I would say something in Finnish, but I don't know much.

But yes, pickles are a very good thing.

Since no one other than Pentekonter has commented on the original question:

It's true that Mark sometimes borrows words from Earthly languages into the vocabulary of his conlangs (for example, he noted that part of the vocabulary of Flaidish comes from Hungarian, albeit suitably altered), although a great deal is also invented and extrapolated from scratch--don't think that he's mostly a borrower!

In the case of Verdurian, Mark has indicated that when he first created the language, back in the late 1970s, he borrowed many words from French and Russian, the languages he knew best at the time, and from elsewhere as well. I don't know about Finnish, however, but I don't think it was a major element. (As a student of Russian, I can say that many of the Russian words in Verdurian jump right out for me when I see them.)

Of the words mentioned above, tyurma is almost certainly from Russian--the spelling even matches one of the most common transliterations of the Russian form (тюрма, tyurma -- I suspect that the Finnish word is itself borrowed from Russian or vice versa). I can't speak for the others--there may well be some Finnish influence, but in some cases, the words in questions really aren't all that similar (bol? vs. paljon, for example), so I wouldn't necessarily rule out coincidence, either--such things do happen, and more often than one might think. Only Mark can say for sure...

p@,
Glenn

Tyurma is definitely from Russian, though perhaps Russian borrowed it from Finnish.

V?reca is probably Germanic, but I'm having trouble finding the source. Finnish vaara is definitely a possibility, but so is Dutch gevaar.

The others are chance resemblances, I'm afraid. Bol? is a back-formation from Russian bol'shoy, and I'm pretty sure the rest are inventions.

zompist wrote:Tyurma is definitely from Russian, though perhaps Russian borrowed it from Finnish.

I can't check now, but I assume that Russian tyurma is a loan from a Germanic language (e.g. German Turm "tower" - towers were often used as prisons; cf. German Schuldturm - "debtors' prison"). Based on which languages Russian mostly borrowed words from, I would suspect German, Dutch, or Swedish (in that order).

Finnish either borrowed the word from Russian, or from the same Germanic source.
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

hwhatting wrote:I can't check now, but I assume that Russian tyurma is a loan from a Germanic language (e.g. German Turm "tower" - towers were often used as prisons; cf. German Schuldturm - "debtors' prison"). Based on which languages Russian mostly borrowed words from, I would suspect German, Dutch, or Swedish (in that order).

Good to see you around again, Hans-Werner.

Any ideas on where the y comes from? That seems like an odd development.

zompist wrote:
Good to see you around again, Hans-Werner.

Thanks. I'm on a new posting that didn't leave me much time for conlanging or board visits at the start, that's why I was absent for a while.

zompist wrote:Any ideas on where the y comes from? That seems like an odd development.

'yu' normally renders German '?', so the word may be borrowed from a form with umlaut - the plural T?rme or the diminutive T?rmchen contain it. The Russian borrowing might be from a dialect form which had the umlaut in the singular analogically. I'll check my etymological dictionary as soon as I'll unpack my books. Does anyone know the Dutch or Swedish words for "prison" or tower" off-hand?
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

hwhatting wrote:

zompist wrote:
Good to see you around again, Hans-Werner.

Thanks. I'm on a new posting that didn't leave me much time for conlanging or board visits at the start, that's why I was absent for a while.

zompist wrote:Any ideas on where the y comes from? That seems like an odd development.

'yu' normally renders German '?', so the word may be borrowed from a form with umlaut - the plural T?rme or the diminutive T?rmchen contain it. The Russian borrowing might be from a dialect form which had the umlaut in the singular analogically. I'll check my etymological dictionary as soon as I'll unpack my books. Does anyone know the Dutch or Swedish words for "prison" or tower" off-hand?
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

Swedish:
tower: torn /t_hurn/
(prison: f?ngelse, tho' there might be some others, but none that is relevant)

Before I head out for the time being, I wanted to add my greetings to Zomp's:

Salem, Hans-Werner! It's good to see you here once again; it feels like a long time since your last visit...

I hope that your new posting is going well, and that things have been good both for you and for your family. Feel free to drop in when you have the time.

Sau bol,
Glenn

The Dutch word for tower is "toren", and the word for prison is "gevangenis", from the verb "vangen", to capture or catch.

Glenn Kempf wrote:Before I head out for the time being, I wanted to add my greetings to Zomp's:

Salem, Hans-Werner! It's good to see you here once again; it feels like a long time since your last visit...

I hope that your new posting is going well, and that things have been good both for you and for your family. Feel free to drop in when you have the time.

Sau bol,
Glenn

Rakhmet, Glenn. Good to see you're still actively on board!
Work is going reasonably well, and my family is fine.
I'll look regularly at the Almea part of the board - it's easy to keep up with, as traffic is lower than in the other fora, - and I'll browse the other fora now and then. If you (or anyone else on the board) would like to contact me or would have a question that I could answer, drop me a PM, so I won't miss it.
Sau bol,
Hans-Werner

?ge Kruger wrote:The Dutch word for tower is "toren", and the word for prison is "gevangenis", from the verb "vangen", to capture or catch.

So it seems neither the Dutch nor the Swedish word contains an umlaut; that'd mean we have to look to a non-standard German form as the culprit.
BTW, the German word for "prison" is Gef?ngnis - so it's basically the same as in Dutch.
Best regards,
Hans-Werner