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Emai,

while re-reading the Travelers' guide (BTW, that's one of the parts of VV I like most), I came across this:

To the east is the Nochii 'Night' district, known for its theaters, nightclubs, restaurants, discos, and stores.

What's a disco in Verduria like? I'd assume they did not yet invent electricity or the grammophone, so is it something like a public ballroom where bands are playing? And what are contemporary Verdurian rhythms and dances like? What's the public like? More "youths on their own", like in a modern disco, or whole families going there, with parents watching over their children (and maybe taking part in the action)?
Ad onlel?n,
Hans-Werner

hwhatting wrote:while re-reading the Travelers' guide (BTW, that's one of the parts of VV I like most),

Thanks, I'm fond of it as well. I've always been somewhat surprised that it gets a lot less hits than the language information, which I would have thought would be of more limited appeal.

I came across this:

To the east is the Nochii 'Night' district, known for its theaters, nightclubs, restaurants, discos, and stores.

What's a disco in Verduria like? I'd assume they did not yet invent electricity or the grammophone, so is it something like a public ballroom where bands are playing? And what are contemporary Verdurian rhythms and dances like? What's the public like? More "youths on their own", like in a modern disco, or whole families going there, with parents watching over their children (and maybe taking part in the action)?

The translation 'disco' is more or less a joke; better would be 'dance hall'. You're quite right about its general nature-- dancing with live music.

Verdurian social life is still largely family-oriented-- so though young people might be the most avid dancers, they'd go with their families, not with their friends.

I wish I could describe Verdurian music, but I don't have a musical imagination. Music varies enormously between Earth cultures, so I'd expect it to be at least as different from traditional European music as Chinese or Arabic music is.

There's not yet the great divide between popular and serious music that we have. An orchestra accompanying a nobleman's entertainment might well play some of the same dances from the dance halls (though perhaps quieter and more consistently on key...).

zompist wrote: There's not yet the great divide between popular and serious music that we have. An orchestra accompanying a nobleman's entertainment might well play some of the same dances from the dance halls (though perhaps quieter and more consistently on key...).

As I see it, the basic difference between "serious" and "popular" music is what you can do with it - popular music can be sung or hummed along to, or danced to, while "serious" music has to be concentrated on and can only be listened to. Both can be used as "background" music - see Handel's fireworks and water music. I would imagine that maybe the Xurnese have been going further into that direction?
In the Eurpean tradition, one of the most important paths for the evolving of serious music was church music. Have you thought about the use of music in the various religions of Almea?
Lots of questions, I know...
Ad onlel?n,
Hans-Werner

hwhatting wrote:As I see it, the basic difference between "serious" and "popular" music is what you can do with it - popular music can be sung or hummed along to, or danced to, while "serious" music has to be concentrated on and can only be listened to. Both can be used as "background" music - see Handel's fireworks and water music. I would imagine that maybe the Xurnese have been going further into that direction?

Yes... the Xurnese are more appreciative of pure performance, as well as individual artistic achievement. Music in Verduria is often still anonymous; there's not much of a tradition of named (much less famous) composers. This has been accelerated in Xurno by the political system... fame as an artist can be directly translated into political power, and vice versa. If it's the governor's string solo, you can bet everyone pays close attention.

In the Eurpean tradition, one of the most important paths for the evolving of serious music was church music. Have you thought about the use of music in the various religions of Almea?

Cadhinorian ritual is traditionally accompanied by the cevai-- a solemn chant, without instrumental accompaniment. There is some melody (and in some traditions, complex choral arrangements and contrapuntalism). Other religions are discussed a bit on the Verdurian poetics page.

hwhatting wrote:popular music can be sung or hummed along to, or danced to, while "serious" music has to be concentrated on and can only be listened to.

By this, do you mean orchestral or symphonic music rather than opera or ballet? I dunno... I've always found Ludwig van pretty hummable myself, and you'd be surprised how danceable the 1812 Overture can be with a little determination.

Of course the boundary between serious and popular can always shift, too, and there are cultures for whom things like opera and ballet are raucous, popular entertainment in one day and age, and carefully structured elite entertainments in another.

Which brings up a question for me, since we're talking about attractions... if there's anything like opera or ballet in Almea. What "shant" and "cadhina" might be like, for example. I'm guessing that more complex forms are likelier to be found in Xurno, from what we've learned thus far.

ils wrote:Which brings up a question for me, since we're talking about attractions... if there's anything like opera or ballet in Almea. What "shant" and "cadhina" might be like, for example. I'm guessing that more complex forms are likelier to be found in Xurno, from what we've learned thus far.

Yes, that's a safe bet... as for Verduria, there would certainly be something like ballet (dance performances set to music), and I imagine opera too. I should think about this more... it ought to strike Western terrestrials as strange and difficult, like Chinese opera.

hwhatting wrote:

zompist wrote: There's not yet the great divide between popular and serious music that we have. An orchestra accompanying a nobleman's entertainment might well play some of the same dances from the dance halls (though perhaps quieter and more consistently on key...).

As I see it, the basic difference between "serious" and "popular" music is what you can do with it - popular music can be sung or hummed along to, or danced to, while "serious" music has to be concentrated on and can only be listened to. Both can be used as "background" music - see Handel's fireworks and water music. I would imagine that maybe the Xurnese have been going further into that direction?
In the Eurpean tradition, one of the most important paths for the evolving of serious music was church music. Have you thought about the use of music in the various religions of Almea?
Lots of questions, I know...
Ad onlel?n,
Hans-Werner

I wouldn't agree. Most classical music is very hummable. Of course, you can argue that classical music has other layers of accompaniment too - but then, so does popular music. Classical music hummed is very pale and shallow compared to the real deal - and the same applies for popular music.

The way I see it, art is subjective. Whether something is "beautiful" or "ugly", "serious" or "popular" is in the eyes of the beholder. There are very few universal constants in art (e.g., most cultures would agree that a perfect fifth sounds better than a diminished fifth), but other than that, everything is totally subjective.

Ran wrote: I wouldn't agree. Most classical music is very hummable. Of course, you can argue that classical music has other layers of accompaniment too - but then, so does popular music. Classical music hummed is very pale and shallow compared to the real deal - and the same applies for popular music.

Well, maybe it was not clear what I wanted to say - of course it's technically possible to hum along to any piece of music, and many works of serious music have parts that stick in mind like some pop songs do (e.g., Beethovens "Ode to Joy"). And I was not juxtaposing classical music and popular music, but serious music and popular music. There are certainly pieces of not-classical music which I would count as "serious".

What I meant is that the distinction of serious and non-serious music implies that there are pieces of music which are meant by their composers to be concentrated on and explored, while others are not.

Ran wrote: The way I see it, art is subjective. Whether something is "beautiful" or "ugly", "serious" or "popular" is in the eyes of the beholder. There are very few universal constants in art (e.g., most cultures would agree that a perfect fifth sounds better than a diminished fifth), but other than that, everything is totally subjective.

You're totally right on the question of "beautiful" / "ugly". On the question of serious and popular - well, this division is one that Western culture makes, and what I tried was to delineate the principle behind this division. Of course, the choice of having "popular" as the opposite term to "serious" is not very fitting; it is based on 19th century prejudices. (In German, the pair would be ernste Musik ("serious music") against Unterhaltungsmusik "popular music", literally: "entertainment music" - also not a very good choice of terms, as it implies that serious music can't be entertaining, and vice versa ). Of course, one can dismiss the distinction and say that there's only good music and bad music, and even that's subjective, but I think the distinction adds a useful axis of measurement, enabling us to say that X is a good piece of popular music, while Y is a bad piece of serious music. Where you place individual pieces on the axis is, of course, depending on your personal judgement.
(As you may notice, I'm nowhere saying that "serious" music is better than "popular" - IMO, they serve different needs.)
Best regards,
Hans-Werner