Good grief! <big><big>Meshaism!</big></big>
Look!
Look!
Has nobody noticed the new stuff on VV?
Good grief! <big><big>Meshaism!</big></big>
Good grief! <big><big>Meshaism!</big></big>
Salmoneus wrote:(NB Dewrad is behaving like an adult - a petty, sarcastic and uncharitable adult, admittedly, but none the less note the infinitely higher quality of flame)
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Space Dracula
- Lebom
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I'm glad Meshaism became an opportunity to give us a really broad window into the various cultures that practised it; I'm especially impressed by the ewemi (inspired by some Native American approaches to gender, perhaps?). IMO it's the most varied, interesting and entertaining of the religion pages so far. Bravo.
Oh THAT'S why I was on hiatus. Right. Hiatus Mode re-engaged.
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Warmaster
- Lebom
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Firstly, great to see some new pages! I looked forward to this to get to know the southern states more (though I?d really like skorene stuff myself?)
Secondly, the link to the Axunashin grammar makes me feel it is very near, oh that tingles the bones!
Thirdly, I like the banners!
Though I am rather tired and am reading fast, I definitely like the idea of the cycles, and the mix of the totems. The cycles idea instantly (as always) wants me to know more cycles than you say! Ah well, I?ll have to with them?
The planes of being are cool as well. Somewhat similar to a simply phrase I use a lot about death when someone moves onto another plane of being. Very cool indeed.
The comparison with china is intensified with the water empire section (even though I don?t know much about china!) but still very good and I like it all a lot.
The racism and sexism thing is very naturalistic and quite different to how I imagined it from the atlas (its going to drive eddy mad is he has the intelligence to read it) which seemed slightly implausible, but going into detail like this nicely ties it all together and shows how it does all work.
(I must admit, its seems more like history than religion for a while, which is fine by me! I like history!)
The idea of three sexes among humans really caught me off guard! It?s a really weird idea, but I think it works really well to make something nice an unique, that?s for certain!, well done with that!
I?m not good at this, so there?s not much more I can say. Its certainly really good though, well done! (and I look forward to the grammar!
Best quote: ?A fifth or more of the population was considered ewemi. Only a fraction of these were actually gay or lesbian; we could equally call the ewemi 'geeks' or, more nicely, 'intellectuals'.?
Secondly, the link to the Axunashin grammar makes me feel it is very near, oh that tingles the bones!
Thirdly, I like the banners!
Though I am rather tired and am reading fast, I definitely like the idea of the cycles, and the mix of the totems. The cycles idea instantly (as always) wants me to know more cycles than you say! Ah well, I?ll have to with them?
The planes of being are cool as well. Somewhat similar to a simply phrase I use a lot about death when someone moves onto another plane of being. Very cool indeed.
The comparison with china is intensified with the water empire section (even though I don?t know much about china!) but still very good and I like it all a lot.
The racism and sexism thing is very naturalistic and quite different to how I imagined it from the atlas (its going to drive eddy mad is he has the intelligence to read it) which seemed slightly implausible, but going into detail like this nicely ties it all together and shows how it does all work.
(I must admit, its seems more like history than religion for a while, which is fine by me! I like history!)
The idea of three sexes among humans really caught me off guard! It?s a really weird idea, but I think it works really well to make something nice an unique, that?s for certain!, well done with that!
I?m not good at this, so there?s not much more I can say. Its certainly really good though, well done! (and I look forward to the grammar!
Best quote: ?A fifth or more of the population was considered ewemi. Only a fraction of these were actually gay or lesbian; we could equally call the ewemi 'geeks' or, more nicely, 'intellectuals'.?
Don't worry Girls, Explosions fix everything!
He who is also known as Ben
He who is also known as Ben
I'm still put off by the whole idea of "hydraulic empires," actually -- weird how much of a pet peeve that is for me, but there it is -- perhaps because it tends to encourage misconceptions about Terran history. (China was never a "hydraulic empire," for instance.) OTOH I'm finding myself more able to buy it in the Almean context than was previously the case. I'm tempted to ascribe the existence of "hydraulic" states on Almea to the amphibian-descended biology of its hominids, though I'm not sure if Mark would buy that.Warmaster wrote:The comparison with china is intensified with the water empire section
In any case I think the civilizations of the Xengi have developed a distinctive enough imprint that they can't be compared to any Terran civilizations. Moreso, I think, than the societies of Eretald, oddly enough. It's a very, very nice blending of influences and ideas.
Oh THAT'S why I was on hiatus. Right. Hiatus Mode re-engaged.
First of all, thank you very much for the new addition, Mark--neat stuff! 
Meshaism has been a long-awaited and much-anticipated part of the Almean setting. (I hope that some day you will be able to do the same for Endajue and Bezuxao, not to mention Arashei and Eledhat, and Jippurasti, and... 
On the Xurnese side, I also look forward to seeing A Diary of the Prose Wars when it eventually appears.)
I just finished reading the description; it contained features that I expected--the history of the Ezicimi invasion and the centralized Axunemi state, the social hierarchy (in contrast to the more egalitarian Xurnese society later on), polytheism, the rise of Endajue and Bezuxao, and the survival of Meshaism in Cheiy--as well as some completely unexpected ones: the aspect of the gods as animal totems (which I definitely did not expect), the belief in three sexes and the ewemi (ditto), and the divergent evolution of Meshaism in Cheiy (including its "reduced" profile as an institutional force--interesting notes on Cheiyu society, BTW) and in Cuoli.
You'd mentioned in the past that the Xurnese had a different conception of magic than the Verdurians and related peoples, but the idea of the Hundred Planes was not a possibility I'd thought of. (It kind of reminds me of the works of Michael Moorcock, actually.
) The idea of cosmic cycles, on the other hand, can be seen reflected later on in Endajue.
In looking at Meshaism and Wede:i/Axunemi/Xurnese history, I think that I can spot some of the different inspirations from Earthly history and cultures, but as ils noted, the combination of ideas generates a fairly unique picture in its own right, rather than a parallel with any one terrestrial society.
***
[self-indulgent babble]
Oddly enough (or perhaps not so odd), some of the aspects described for Meshaism and Xurno have parallels for long-standing ideas of my own, regarding my own consetting: the question of a conquering population assimilating the conquered, and vice versa; state administration and the idea of "hydraulic empires" (to be fair, I mostly stole this idea from Mark , and I am aware of the problems with the "hydraulic empire" concept); the "revived" pantheism of the Cuolese, which has some resemblance to a similarly revived/surviving faith for one of my conpeoples; and even the ewemi, to a small degree (although my own notion was more minor, and far more stereotypical--I'd simply thought of a special social category (separate, but accepted) for homosexuals in my "viewpoint" society).
Mind you, Mark has put far more thought and effort into his ideas than I have into any of mine.
[/self-indulgent babble; back to honest admiration]
***
A few minor questions:
1. I note that many, if not most, of the major deities of Meshaism are identified with celestial bodies--I take it that astrology was an important art in Axunai?
2. The ancient Wede:i city-states each had their patron deity, significant to the priestly and ruling classes of that city (and presumably to the common people as well); at the same time, hundreds of other deities and spirits existed as well. To what extent did any person devote themselves to one god or goddess, to the exclusion of others? Did the patron god of a city have the only (or primary) temple(s) in that city? (You contrasted the case of Cheiy, where the newly-colonized cities and towns contained temples to a variety of deities, and where it was common for worshippers to ask favors of several gods simultaneously.)
3. How does the Senatorial government of Cheiy function, and to what extent is the Senate a broadly elected body, or an elected body at all? (You've already talked a little bit about how Xurno's government functions, although it would be nice to see more of it as well.)
Some side notes:
I notice that the streak of humor that once gave rise to Durion, God of Rock
(he of the heavy rhythm section), is still at work, or rather play:
"Philosophers usually insisted that the mure?i were separate worlds or dimensions and were only traversed at birth and death. This sort of thing is not easy to get into people's heads; as we see from the Divine Comedy or The Journey to the West or that disaster Star Trek V, people prefer to think that one can reach the home of the gods by a physical journey..."
"By the Age of Petty Kings the anarchy of life on earth was countered by a proliferation of omnipowerful beings on many levels-- new cliques of them were always being discovered, much as in the Marvel Universe."
Finally, I note that this piece contains one of the only (semi-)detailed descriptions of clothing and traditional modes of dress in Virtual Verduria. Do you have some similar ideas for dress (and other visual expressions of culture) for some of the other Almean peoples?
Thanks again!
p@,
Glenn
Meshaism has been a long-awaited and much-anticipated part of the Almean setting. (I hope that some day you will be able to do the same for Endajue and Bezuxao, not to mention Arashei and Eledhat, and Jippurasti, and... On the Xurnese side, I also look forward to seeing A Diary of the Prose Wars when it eventually appears.)I just finished reading the description; it contained features that I expected--the history of the Ezicimi invasion and the centralized Axunemi state, the social hierarchy (in contrast to the more egalitarian Xurnese society later on), polytheism, the rise of Endajue and Bezuxao, and the survival of Meshaism in Cheiy--as well as some completely unexpected ones: the aspect of the gods as animal totems (which I definitely did not expect), the belief in three sexes and the ewemi (ditto), and the divergent evolution of Meshaism in Cheiy (including its "reduced" profile as an institutional force--interesting notes on Cheiyu society, BTW) and in Cuoli.
You'd mentioned in the past that the Xurnese had a different conception of magic than the Verdurians and related peoples, but the idea of the Hundred Planes was not a possibility I'd thought of. (It kind of reminds me of the works of Michael Moorcock, actually.
) The idea of cosmic cycles, on the other hand, can be seen reflected later on in Endajue.In looking at Meshaism and Wede:i/Axunemi/Xurnese history, I think that I can spot some of the different inspirations from Earthly history and cultures, but as ils noted, the combination of ideas generates a fairly unique picture in its own right, rather than a parallel with any one terrestrial society.
***
[self-indulgent babble]
Oddly enough (or perhaps not so odd), some of the aspects described for Meshaism and Xurno have parallels for long-standing ideas of my own, regarding my own consetting: the question of a conquering population assimilating the conquered, and vice versa; state administration and the idea of "hydraulic empires" (to be fair, I mostly stole this idea from Mark
, and I am aware of the problems with the "hydraulic empire" concept); the "revived" pantheism of the Cuolese, which has some resemblance to a similarly revived/surviving faith for one of my conpeoples; and even the ewemi, to a small degree (although my own notion was more minor, and far more stereotypical--I'd simply thought of a special social category (separate, but accepted) for homosexuals in my "viewpoint" society).Mind you, Mark has put far more thought and effort into his ideas than I have into any of mine.
[/self-indulgent babble; back to honest admiration]
***
A few minor questions:
1. I note that many, if not most, of the major deities of Meshaism are identified with celestial bodies--I take it that astrology was an important art in Axunai?
2. The ancient Wede:i city-states each had their patron deity, significant to the priestly and ruling classes of that city (and presumably to the common people as well); at the same time, hundreds of other deities and spirits existed as well. To what extent did any person devote themselves to one god or goddess, to the exclusion of others? Did the patron god of a city have the only (or primary) temple(s) in that city? (You contrasted the case of Cheiy, where the newly-colonized cities and towns contained temples to a variety of deities, and where it was common for worshippers to ask favors of several gods simultaneously.)
3. How does the Senatorial government of Cheiy function, and to what extent is the Senate a broadly elected body, or an elected body at all? (You've already talked a little bit about how Xurno's government functions, although it would be nice to see more of it as well.)
Some side notes:
I notice that the streak of humor that once gave rise to Durion, God of Rock
(he of the heavy rhythm section), is still at work, or rather play:
"Philosophers usually insisted that the mure?i were separate worlds or dimensions and were only traversed at birth and death. This sort of thing is not easy to get into people's heads; as we see from the Divine Comedy or The Journey to the West or that disaster Star Trek V, people prefer to think that one can reach the home of the gods by a physical journey..."
"By the Age of Petty Kings the anarchy of life on earth was countered by a proliferation of omnipowerful beings on many levels-- new cliques of them were always being discovered, much as in the Marvel Universe."
Finally, I note that this piece contains one of the only (semi-)detailed descriptions of clothing and traditional modes of dress in Virtual Verduria. Do you have some similar ideas for dress (and other visual expressions of culture) for some of the other Almean peoples?
Thanks again!
p@,
Glenn
Thanks for the reactions... keep 'em coming! It's nice to not only have people who will read this stuff, but can relate it to other Almean material.
It's nice to not only have people who will read this stuff, but can relate it to other Almean material.I take a broad view of what religion is... religion and culture interact so much that I prefer to consider them together.Warmaster wrote:(I must admit, its seems more like history than religion for a while, which is fine by me! I like history!)
No, that's a neat point. I may even have to add that in...ils wrote:OTOH I'm finding myself more able to buy it in the Almean context than was previously the case. I'm tempted to ascribe the existence of "hydraulic" states on Almea to the amphibian-descended biology of its hominids, though I'm not sure if Mark would buy that.
Ugh!Glenn Kempf wrote:You'd mentioned in the past that the Xurnese had a different conception of magic than the Verdurians and related peoples, but the idea of the Hundred Planes was not a possibility I'd thought of. (It kind of reminds me of the works of Michael Moorcock, actually.
Yes, but not necessarily greater than in any other early society. At least, it seems natural to me to associate planets with gods.1. I note that many, if not most, of the major deities of Meshaism are identified with celestial bodies--I take it that astrology was an important art in Axunai?
There were temples to many gods in the homeland as well; the chief difference is in the importance of the patron god. His or her temple would definitely be the biggest and best staffed, have the most festivals, and in general was the focus of civic life. Everyone was expected to participate in the cult.2. The ancient Wede:i city-states each had their patron deity, significant to the priestly and ruling classes of that city (and presumably to the common people as well); at the same time, hundreds of other deities and spirits existed as well. To what extent did any person devote themselves to one god or goddess, to the exclusion of others? Did the patron god of a city have the only (or primary) temple(s) in that city? (You contrasted the case of Cheiy, where the newly-colonized cities and towns contained temples to a variety of deities, and where it was common for worshippers to ask favors of several gods simultaneously.)
An individual might have one or more other loyalties, for whatever reason. I didn't mean to imply that this would only happen in Cheiy; loyalties were simply more fluid there, and a little more openly egotistical. In Axunai you might be committed to appeasing Grandpa's god, like it or not, and it'd be seen badly if you gave him up just because you felt like it. In Cheiy, no problem.
It was elected, but there was a lot more representation for the wealthy. I can't give more details now; this should be covered when we get to Bezuxao...3. How does the Senatorial government of Cheiy function, and to what extent is the Senate a broadly elected body, or an elected body at all? (You've already talked a little bit about how Xurno's government functions, although it would be nice to see more of it as well.)
I'm getting more confident in my drawing skills, so I'll probably do more of this. I don't think I'm brilliant at it, but hey, I can draw better than most of the 1st edition D&D illustrators...Finally, I note that this piece contains one of the only (semi-)detailed descriptions of clothing and traditional modes of dress in Virtual Verduria. Do you have some similar ideas for dress (and other visual expressions of culture) for some of the other Almean peoples?
No offense was intended, believe mezompist wrote:Ugh!Glenn Kempf wrote:You'd mentioned in the past that the Xurnese had a different conception of magic than the Verdurians and related peoples, but the idea of the Hundred Planes was not a possibility I'd thought of. (It kind of reminds me of the works of Michael Moorcock, actually.
; I just happened to be re-reading some old copies of Moorcock recently. (He does seem to have had a definite impact on the pop-fantasy conception of "the planes of existence".)That's more or less what I suspected; thank you for this answer, and for the rest of your replies as well.It was elected, but there was a lot more representation for the wealthy. I can't give more details now; this should be covered when we get to Bezuxao...3. How does the Senatorial government of Cheiy function, and to what extent is the Senate a broadly elected body, or an elected body at all? (You've already talked a little bit about how Xurno's government functions, although it would be nice to see more of it as well.)
True enough; I still have some battered copies of the 1st edition AD&D hardbacks from c. 1980, which aren't much better artwise. (One cute April Fools' Day illustration from Dragon magazine, some years later, parodied the cover of the 1st-edition Dungeon Master's Guide (showing a party of adventurers climbing a diabolic idol) by filling the scene with weapon-toting teddy bears instead.I'm getting more confident in my drawing skills, so I'll probably do more of this. I don't think I'm brilliant at it, but hey, I can draw better than most of the 1st edition D&D illustrators...
)[EDIT: Or was that weapon-toting Ewoks? I'm not sure... For those who remember the humorous SF stories by Poul Anderson and Gordon Dickson, they might have been Hokas.
](On the other hand, current publications, from what I've seen of them, seem to be so full of artwork that it almost overwhelms the text. But I digress...)
BTW, I hope that the tenor of your comments indicates that we may be seeing Endajue and Bezuxao before too long...
p@,
Glenn
Last edited by Glenn on Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I really like the historical-theology stuff, I'm still trying to work that out for some of my cultures.
Another thing I noticed was a possible borrowing from Earth? ":sh arus" for cycle seems realted to the Chaldean astronomicla cycle, the saros, the word still used today for the 19-year cycle of eclipses. Is that a concious borrowing?
Another thing I noticed was a possible borrowing from Earth? ":sh arus" for cycle seems realted to the Chaldean astronomicla cycle, the saros, the word still used today for the 19-year cycle of eclipses. Is that a concious borrowing?
Nope, just a coincidence.Aidan wrote:Another thing I noticed was a possible borrowing from Earth? ":sh arus" for cycle seems realted to the Chaldean astronomicla cycle, the saros, the word still used today for the 19-year cycle of eclipses. Is that a concious borrowing?
As for Unicoding other pages, it's on the list of things to do, but not high up. The Verdurian pages would have to be entirely redone-- most of the pages I did recently were short enough that I could cut-n-paste through them.