Elkar?l grammar

[Iscun]

About this...

Elkar?l is the language of the elcari of the Elkarin Mountains west of Eretald. It is the best-known non-human language of Erel?e.

What do you mean by "best known"? What humans would actually take the time to learn this rough, Klingon-sounding language, and who would actually take the time to write any kind of grammar?

On the plain, at least, Flaidish must be more well-known. It mustn't be very hard to learn, since they are so similar to humans, and can even mix with them.

[zompist]

Elkar?l is the language of the elcari of the Elkarin Mountains west of Eretald. It is the best-known non-human language of Erel?e.

What do you mean by "best known"? What humans would actually take the time to learn this rough, Klingon-sounding language, and who would actually take the time to write any kind of grammar?

On the plain, at least, Flaidish must be more well-known. It mustn't be very hard to learn, since they are so similar to humans, and can even mix with them.

Good point. OK, best-known by us, so far.

(I have a very short word-list for Flaidish, but I wasn't planning on making it very exotic... quite the reverse; its phonology is very similar to English.)

[butsuri]

Elkar?l is the language of the elcari of the Elkarin Mountains west of Eretald. It is the best-known non-human language of Erel?e.

What do you mean by "best known"? What humans would actually take the time to learn this rough, Klingon-sounding language, and who would actually take the time to write any kind of grammar?

On the plain, at least, Flaidish must be more well-known. It mustn't be very hard to learn, since they are so similar to humans, and can even mix with them.

Good point. OK, best-known by us, so far. :)

(I have a very short word-list for Flaidish, but I wasn't planning on making it very exotic... quite the reverse; its phonology is very similar to English.)

A collection of heterogeneous points raised by the preceding:

Best-known is a fairly vague term in English; if more uesti have heard of Elkar?l than Flaidish, you could still say it's better known, even if Flaidish has many more fluent uesti speakers.

Generally speaking, are the uesti better at learning the languages of the elcari or vice-versa? Do trading pidgins exist which allow communication in a format acceptable to both?

If Elkar?l is "the language of the elcari of the Elkarin Mountains west of Eretald", what do the other elcari speak? That is to say, how different/related are these slowly changing languages?

[zompist]

Generally speaking, are the uesti better at learning the languages of the elcari or vice-versa? Do trading pidgins exist which allow communication in a format acceptable to both?

The elcari are almost always the ones to learn human languages-- not because they're specially gifted at languages, or because they hide their language in any way, but because of their longer lifespans. An elcar would rather just learn a human language or two than have to help teach Elkar?l to new generations of humans at an annoying pace.

For the last 4000 years or so, the elcari of Elkarinor have simply travelled to the Eardur valley and traded with whatever humans they find there-- those humans can then re-sell their wares to the rest of the Plain. So the trade language is currently Barakhinei, which is why Elkar?l borrowings into Verdurian normally pass through Barakhinei.

If Elkar?l is "the language of the elcari of the Elkarin Mountains west of Eretald", what do the other elcari speak? That is to say, how different/related are these slowly changing languages?

All the elcarin languages of Erel?e form a single family, about as differentiated as the Romance languages. The elcari of Elkarinor can pretty easily speak with the elcari of the Diqun Bormai (west of Xurno). It'd be harder but not impossible for them to understand the elcari of T?llinor.

[Glenn]

One more question…

I was looking at Iscun’s sentence again and trying to think of how it might be written as a general recommendation (“Students should read…”), and one thing struck me. Shobd can mean either “to learn” or “to teach”, depending on whether the “subject” is the experiencer or intender (this is similar to the distinction between an intransitive and transitive verb in English, or учить (to teach) and the reflexive учиться (to learn, study) in Russian.) The agentive, nshobd, presumably means “teacher.” So—how would one say “student”? Is there a modifier to indicate the recipient of an action?

Something to think about…

Baruk Khaz?d! Khazad ai-m?nu!
Baruqaj ?khathaj! Kich ntaban qh?k khathaj!

(Tolkien translates the original as “Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!” I rewrote the second sentence as “The Dwarves (=elcari) are fighting to kill the enemy,” since the original version doesn’t seem to translate well directly into Elacar?l.)

[So Haleza Grise]

Muuun dduch bbij qhir dda miph?t bb?thu elkar?l add.

--but yes, I too am suitably impressed with the alienness, and also the looking-glass logic, of the language. Ortography *will* be interesting though - how does one transcribe along a continuum rather than discretely? I suspect the language may be harder for dduchaj to read than it is to speak!

I am amused by the thought of an Elcarin accent in another language. It would be a little odd.

Oh, and yes, i spotted baruq (I've always been a big fan of Tolkien's dwarves actually), but i also wonder . . . was the dun in ebdunmak possibly inspired by the -dum in Khazad-dum? Did you have that in mind for "delving, excavation" when you created the word, long before you actually got to the language proper?

Also, baruq is a derived word, where char is an unanalysable root; this suggests to me that the original word for "axe" may have become taboo. Cf. Russian medved'.

Oh yes, and how do Elcari (if at all) salute and farewell each other?

[pne]

Also, baruq is a derived word, where char is an unanalysable root; this suggests to me that the original word for "axe" may have become taboo. Cf. Russian medved'.

What's the story behind Russian "medved'"? Was there also a taboo leading to a substitution there?

[pne]

The variable idea is indeed similar to Sign, and also Lojban, though neither of these took the idea to its logical extreme and got rid of the personal pronouns!

Lojban's ko'a and friends (or, more generally, goi as an assigner) was what I first thought of when I read about the "assigning" bit.

[Glenn]

Also, baruq is a derived word, where char is an unanalysable root; this suggests to me that the original word for "axe" may have become taboo. Cf. Russian medved'.

What's the story behind Russian "medved'"? Was there also a taboo leading to a substitution there?

With regard to medved’ (“bear”), the original Russian word for “bear” (presumably from the same Indo-European root as the Latin ursus) was considered taboo, the bear being a sacred animal, so medved’, meaning “honey-eater,” was used instead. The same bear taboo shows up in a number of Indo-European languages, from Slavic to Germanic, including English (“bear” comes from the root for “brown”—compare “bruin”), and, I believe, in Hungarian as well.

I agree that a list of Elcarin greetings, farewells, and courtesies (if they exist), would be useful. These might be short, but I can also see them being full-blown Elcarin sentences: Meet Littlebottom-A handshake befriend Thundergust-E! (Live-A happy-same) sub want-E! = “Thundergust greets his friend Littlebottom with a handshake! He wishes him a happy life!” (Actually, making up Elcarin sentences could get highly addictive, if you’re bbuj enough.)

Ad onlel?n,
Glenn

[Ihano]

If you have a noun ending in a vowel (like the suffixes -a or -u) and you want to add another suffix beginning in a vowel (and no procedure is specified in the grammar), what do you do? Specifically, I want to add -oj to ??mu.

Also, what would be the word for "carpenter"? "Nelkri?"?

[zompist]

Shobd can mean either ?to learn? or ?to teach?, depending on whether the ?subject? is the experiencer or intender (this is similar to the distinction between an intransitive and transitive verb in English, or ????? (to teach) and the reflexive ??????? (to learn, study) in Russian.) The agentive, nshobd, presumably means ?teacher.? So?how would one say ?student?? Is there a modifier to indicate the recipient of an action?

On reflection, I think shobd doesn't quite work. Dialectal English can get by with "I'll learn you to steal my rutabagas", because the presence or absence of an object determines the meaning. But this doesn't quite work for Elkaril. I have to think about this.

Baruk Khaz?d! Khazad ai-m?nu!
Baruqaj ?khathaj! Kich ntaban qh?k khathaj!

(Tolkien translates the original as ?Axes of the Dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!? I rewrote the second sentence as ?The Dwarves (=elcari) are fighting to kill the enemy,? since the original version doesn?t seem to translate well directly into Elacar?l.)

You can probably omit the first -aj; plurals are optional.

A more literal translation might be On khathaj tun-ntaban, literally, 'exist elcari against enemy', but yours is pithier, and I like having both action and purpose reinforce the threat.

[zompist]

If you have a noun ending in a vowel (like the suffixes -a or -u) and you want to add another suffix beginning in a vowel (and no procedure is specified in the grammar), what do you do? Specifically, I want to add -oj to ??mu.

I'll extend the bit about pluralizers and say that you insert -q-. (I know that this creates some ambiguities. I'll think about it some more.)

Also, what would be the word for "carpenter"? "Nelkri?"?

That would work, but there's probably something more specific. I'll look at this too...

[Drydic]

I was jsut looking over the old Verdurian board, and I found something striking: Most of the differneces in Elkar?l from human languages seem to be stated there as features of Eteod?ole. This, in addition to your statement that the Elkarl languages change only very slowly, made me think 'could the Ilii have sowed the seeds of language in the rest of the thinking kinds?'

Also, did the Inbamumakei Empire worship Inb?mu over Mesha? or is it just a coincidence?

T?au

JR

[pne]

could the Ilii have sowed the seeds of language in the rest of the thinking kinds?

And the Cuzeians believe that the Iliu gave them their writing.

[Glenn]

could the Ilii have sowed the seeds of language in the rest of the thinking kinds?

And the Cuzeians believe that the Iliu gave them their writing.

I doubt that the ilii could have "sown the seeds of language" in the literal sense (that's the result of long biological evolution), but as the "oldest" race and the first civilized, they definitely could have influenced the cultural evolution of the other races (as with the Cuzeians and the Qarumcan)--and the elcari, as an older race, all the more so.

On the other hand, while Elkaril's looking-glass structure and action/purpose distinction (particularly the latter) may match Eteod?ole's emphasis on the speaker's emotion and intent, Elkaril is still a linear, highly fixed language (phonemically, morphologically, and syntactically), which, according to Z, Eteod?ole is not.

p@,
Glenn

[Ihano]

What's the elcar word for "insect"? I could make a "six-legged animal" type of thing, but it seems like something that should have its own morpheme.

[Ihano]

Here's what I plan to work it into. It's not especially funny, but it's longer than what I've done before and the vocabulary isn't too demanding.

Xil Motqichqebot q?l-t?gu ?Tarkhumqebat b?dot. Phurd mbam ng?l durdat. Moxot b?chiq tbopshdat. Qith b?chiq dutat. Bb?that bb? on b???ng. On [insect] q?l-q?b ?bb qaphdot. Bb?thot bb? bb?th t?t-bokh Motqich rap Tarkhum qhir dda mush mbam gima add ?bb shobdat.

Walk Dusksun(=O) in-house of-Stormcloud(=A) visit-O. Heat goat fire cook-A. Receive-O apple not-hungry-causative-A. Pierce apple teeth-of-O. Hear-A, "Exist dismaaal. Exist insect inside-round-object" complain-O. Hear-O, "Speak not-greedily Dusksun request Stormcloud because {greater goat amount}" inform-A.

Dusksun went to visit Stormcloud. She was cooking a goat and gave Dusksun an apple to tide him over. He bit into it and say, "Hey, there's an insect in this apple! What gives?!" Stormcloud replied, "Don't be greedy, there are more in the goat."

The sentence I worry about is "Qith b?chiq dutat." It doesn't have a purpose attached to it, because I searched through all the purpose terms and found nothing that would fit without adding too much new meaning. However, I hope it passes on the grounds of the following text, which is normal without a purpose:

Bodily actions and movements can have a person as experiencer:

T?mth p-tird Tarkhum.
ate and-washed Stormcloud
Stormcloud washed himself and ate.

I used 'qith' rather than 't?m' because I wanted to emphasize the action of penetrating the apple rather than the eating.

How do you get across new sentences within bb?...?bb? I did it the way you would elsewhere, but it seems strange because you don't capitalize the beginning of the quote.

[pne]

When you assign a certain vowel to a person with -qeb-, are there any traditional orders?

Perhaps u-?-i for far-medium-close referents? Or alphabetical order, whatever that is in Elkar?l? Or anything like that? Or perhaps picking a prominent vowel in the name of the referent?

Or is the order (potentially) random and you can choose any vowel you feel like and that isn't already assigned?

[zompist]

When you assign a certain vowel to a person with -qeb-, are there any traditional orders?

Perhaps u-?-i for far-medium-close referents? Or alphabetical order, whatever that is in Elkar?l? Or anything like that? Or perhaps picking a prominent vowel in the name of the referent?

Or is the order (potentially) random and you can choose any vowel you feel like and that isn't already assigned?

You can use any order you like, but the preference is for maximal contrast. So if you have two referents, you might choose U and ?. If you had four, you might use I, ?, O, A. It's best not to use a vowel and its laxed neighbor (e.g. O and ?) until you have more than four referents.

If you change the subject, there's also a preference to use different assignments-- e.g. if you were talking about U and ? for awhile, then you'd switch to E and ? before re-using U and ?.

[zompist]

Xil Motqichqebot q?l-t?gu ?Tarkhumqebat b?dot. Phurd mbam ng?l durdat. Moxot b?chiq tbopshdat. Qith b?chiq dutat. Bb?that bb? on b???ng. On [insect] q?l-q?b ?bb qaphdot. Bb?thot bb? bb?th t?t-bokh Motqich rap Tarkhum qhir dda mush mbam gima add ?bb shobdat.

Hey, that's pretty good. Though I thought of Stormcloud as male!

I'd probably write mbamch in the last sentence (there's more in the goat).

And just for you, here's a new word: ??th 'non-flying insect'.

It's fine to have an occasional sentence without a purpose.

How do you get across new sentences within bb?...?bb? I did it the way you would elsewhere, but it seems strange because you don't capitalize the beginning of the quote.

For a quote as short as yours, it's fine as is. You can remind people that they're in a longer quote by prefixing each sentence with bbe.

[Drydic]

Actually, I wasn't thinking in the biological sense. It just seemed to me that the Elcari, who Mark says are conservative language-wise, seem to have held some of the features that Mark said might be part of Eteod?ole. Mark, any thoughts?

(Forgot about this one. If you're confused, see ~8 posts above.)

[zompist]

Actually, I wasn't thinking in the biological sense. It just seemed to me that the Elcari, who Mark says are conservative language-wise, seem to have held some of the features that Mark said might be part of Eteod?ole. Mark, any thoughts?

In fact, the Count of Years tells that the ilii taught the elcari language-- not Eteod?ole, but "an adaptation to [their] nature".

Perhaps not wishing to acknowledge such a debt, the elcari maintain that they were taught their language by God (that is, Khemthu-N?r).

[Drydic]

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[zompist]

I updated the Elkar?l grammar and lexicon in a few minor areas, mostly to address things brought up here, e.g. adding suffixes to words that end in a vowel (add -q- first, or -m after -u). There's also a word for 'carpenter' (nth?ngd).

I fixed the business about know/learn/teach, which was surprisingly tricky, at least if I didn't want to invent a double causative or new syntax (e.g. adding another case role to purposes).

I ended up solving the problem lexically. shobd is now just 'learn', while 'teach' is a new word l?qd-- literally 'to show by example', related to l?q 'learn by doing'. This leads to separate words nshobd 'student' and nl?qd 'teacher'. Finally, I added shobad 'inform, tell', derived from shoba 'fact'.

[Drydic]

Mark, when you write ny in Elkar?l, do you mean ?, or n?, or [nj]?