Religion Question

WishIWasZompist · Post by **WishIWasZompist** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:48 pm

What is Ele'de?(I think that's how it's spelled) I know it's a religion, I think, but what's it like? Why don't you have it in the belief systems section? Please, tell me, I'm intrigued.

So Haleza Grise · Post by **So Haleza Grise** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:01 pm

The Eledhe religion, or Eledh?t (the best spelling is a d with a hacheck, but unfortunately unicode just doesn't haven't, that's why Zomp uses a d' character), is basically a version of 4th century Christianity as exported from Earth to Almea, and fused with the remnants of the ancient Cuezian religion. Eledh is the Verdurian name normally given to Christ (based on Cuezian Eiledan). Although there's no specific article on the Eledhe religion just yet, you can gain information on its organisation at the Kingdom of Verduria. You can find information from its earlier predecessor, the Cuezian religion, at Almean Belief Systems, as well as Cadhinorian paganism, which is the traditional religion of the Verdurian plain and Eledhat's main competitor. Historical events, starting from the arrival of Elenicoi (Greeks) can be found in the Historical Atlas beginning year 2870.

Materials on Almea are gradually being added to Virtual Verduria by Zompist as he expands and completes them - these things take a lot of work! There will be an entry on Eledh?t, as well as many other details of Almea, at some stage in the future.

Welcome to the board, WIWZ, although I might advise you to pick a new username once you can think of one.

dgoodmaniii · Post by **dgoodmaniii** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:06 pm

So Haleza Grise wrote:Welcome to the board, WIWZ, although I might advise you to pick a new username once you can think of one.

Likewise, though I'm inclined to agree. There's a fine line between admiration of Zompist's work (which I think most of us share) and simple sycophantism. No one (worthy of speaking) likes the latter, particularly the object of it.

Soap · Post by **Soap** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:31 pm

Ďď
They exist. Though, as someone coincidentally was pointing out just recently in another thread, lowercase d-hacek is hardly any different than d followed by an apostrophe anyway.

Glenn · Post by **Glenn** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:49 pm

WishIWasZompist wrote:What is Ele'de?(I think that's how it's spelled) I know it's a religion, I think, but what's it like? Why don't you have it in the belief systems section? Please, tell me, I'm intrigued.

Eledh?t (or Eled'?t, although that doesn't represent the diacritic over the <d> properly) is an Almean Christianity, of sorts; it's a faith resulting from the combination of early Christianity, brought to Almea by a group of 4th-century Greek Christians who were miraculously transported there (one of the few intersections between Almea and "our" Earth), with Arash?t, the descendant of Cuezian monotheism, which is described in the "Almean Belief Systems" section. (There are a number of religions that Mark has not yet posted there; I suspect that Arash?t and Eledh?t will both appear in time.)

Details on Eledh?t and its appearance may be found in the Historical Atlas of Almea--look at the entries for the years 2870, 2958, and 3059, as well as later entries, for some details. Some comments on Eledh?t can also be found elsewhere in Virtual Verduria, in the Almea section here on the ZBB, and possibly on the ZBB's predecessor, the Virtual Verduria Message Board.

Mark has said that if he were creating Almea today, he probably wouldn't have included Eledh?t; there is of, course, a tradition in fantasy literature of people from the "real world" visiting fantasy worlds, but Eledh?t, as a major feature of the Verdurian setting, represents a major intervention into the setting, and contrasts with Almea's status as a world unto itself. Personally, however, I don't mind it; I've said more than once that the story of the Elenicoi (Mihel and his fellows) and their role in the Avelan revolt against Kebri would make a fascinating novel.

p@,
Glenn

EDIT: I see that the question was already answered while I was gone...

Welcome to the board, WIWZ (with the initials, your name reminds me of a radio station, actually

).

WishIWasZompist · Post by **WishIWasZompist** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:53 pm

okey-doke, will do, couldn't think of another name
sorry zomp

boomajoom · Post by **boomajoom** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:32 pm

Wouldn't it be "WishIWereZompist" ?

ketske · Post by **ketske** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:40 pm

One point for pedantry!

Nishikokumarugarasu · Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:32 pm

Aidan · Post by **Aidan** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:51 am

Yeah, right, like English has a seperate past subjunctive! What do you think this is?

Nuntar · Post by **Nuntar** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 1:03 pm

If I were you, I wouldn't be too sarcastic..... English does have a past subjunctive, it's just that it's much less used.

Salmoneus · Post by **Salmoneus** » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:57 pm

I must be being particularly stupid at the moment. Isn't "were" already past-tense? Did you mean to say that there isn't a separate PRESENT subjunctive?

[technically i suppose one could use "if this be", but IMD its just "If this were", even for the present tense]

Aidan · Post by **Aidan** » Sun Nov 21, 2004 7:05 pm

Ahribar wrote:If I were you, I wouldn't be too sarcastic..... English does have a past subjunctive, it's just that it's much less used.

That's what I'm being sarcastic about, yes.

Radius Solis · Post by **Radius Solis** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 1:36 am

I'm confused too. Is someone trying to say there's a form of the subjunctive that actually indicates a tense also, instead of just borrowing a tensed wordform? I thought the subjunctive was a tenseless mood.

Aidan · Post by **Aidan** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:14 am

Radius Solis wrote:I'm confused too. Is someone trying to say there's a form of the subjunctive that actually indicates a tense also, instead of just borrowing a tensed wordform? I thought the subjunctive was a tenseless mood.

Sorry, I was unclear, I was (partially) mock-mocking the idea that English had a subjunctive form seperate from the standard "past" (or the "non-immediate" or something to that effect as I remember Zompist once calling it.) i.e. the distinction between "Wish I was Zompist" and " Wish I were Zompist"

Oric · Post by **Oric** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 9:31 pm

Ah, dammit. You beat me. I was going to say that when I saw the name.

I used to say 'was' for everything. I've started to use 'were' though. But then I use a bilabial fricitave in place of 'f' in my idiolect, so I may just be strange.

Cypresstwo · Post by **Cypresstwo** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:30 am

One thing I don't understand much about the Elenocoi... Why did they care to convert the citizens of Avela? They're merchants, not monks. So, while Mihel might have been filled with religious vigor, I would imagine a man such as he would be more inclined to set-up shop, than suffer martydom.

My second confusion: They arrive at Avela in the year 325. This is the year of the Council of Nicea, the first Ecumenical Council of Christianity. Before (and quite a while after) this time, Christianity more diverse then you might think. Many of the standard mainstream Christian things (Trinitarianism, for example) were not fully decided upon as mainstreamuntil that point, and even then they were not 100% followed by all Christians. I imagine all sorts of varieties of practice were going on during this time-period. Mihel of Avela could very well have been a self-castrated Arian Unitarian ecstatisist who celebrated Easter in September and preformed gay-marriage ceremonies, for all we know.

There really wasn't any standardization of Christianity and its practices at that point. (especially considering that the word of the vague Nicean standard had been reached). Also, Mihel's setting up of the Avelan Bisphoric seems odd. He' s a layman, not clergy; surely he realized the sense in having your massess in someone's home, not a Church?

DISCLAIMER: If any of this made no sense, was false, inflammatory/offensive, then I'm sorry, and Implore you to point outmy errors so that they can be corrected, and I will not continue spreading them.

vlaran of verduria · Post by **vlaran of verduria** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:15 am

DISCLAIMER: If any of this made no sense, was false, inflammatory/offensive, then I'm sorry, and Implore you to point outmy errors so that they can be corrected, and I will not continue spreading them.

actually it's
DISCLAIMER: If any of this made no sense, was false, inflammatory/offensive, then I'm sorry, and Implore you to point out my errors so that they can be corrected, and I will not continue spreading them.

Post by **zompist** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:40 am

Cypresstwo wrote:One thing I don't understand much about the Elenocoi... Why did they care to convert the citizens of Avela? They're merchants, not monks. So, while Mihel might have been filled with religious vigor, I would imagine a man such as he would be more inclined to set-up shop, than suffer martydom.

Trade is quite compatible with missionary work. And the situation in Erenat was ripe for a leader; Mihel stepped into the role.

My second confusion: They arrive at Avela in the year 325. This is the year of the Council of Nicea, the first Ecumenical Council of Christianity. Before (and quite a while after) this time, Christianity more diverse then you might think. Many of the standard mainstream Christian things (Trinitarianism, for example) were not fully decided upon as mainstreamuntil that point, and even then they were not 100% followed by all Christians. I imagine all sorts of varieties of practice were going on during this time-period. Mihel of Avela could very well have been a self-castrated Arian Unitarian ecstatisist who celebrated Easter in September and preformed gay-marriage ceremonies, for all we know.

IIRC Arianism wasn't very popular among the Greeks. The Elenicoi were not going to be a microcosm of all Christian groups at the time; they were largely from what became the orthodox faction. However, doctrine was not identical to our Roman Catholicism, and diverged more on its adaptation to Almea. And of course it had no contact with Earth past 325, and thus no connection to later theological or ecclesiastic developments.

There really wasn't any standardization of Christianity and its practices at that point. (especially considering that the word of the vague Nicean standard had been reached). Also, Mihel's setting up of the Avelan Bisphoric seems odd. He' s a layman, not clergy; surely he realized the sense in having your massess in someone's home, not a Church?

There must have been some priests on board-- I wouldn't want the chain of apostolic succession to be broken.

alephnaught · Post by **alephnaught** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:18 pm

zompist wrote:IIRC Arianism wasn't very popular among the Greeks. The Elenicoi were not going to be a microcosm of all Christian groups at the time; they were largely from what became the orthodox faction. However, doctrine was not identical to our Roman Catholicism, and diverged more on its adaptation to Almea. And of course it had no contact with Earth past 325, and thus no connection to later theological or ecclesiastic developments.

Weren't the Elenicoi from Alexandria? Then I should think that they'd be Arians, as Alexandria at the time (and later the West) was a stronghold of Arianism (Arius was Alexandrian, after all!). The majority of bishops across the empire were Arians at the time, anyway.

You know, it might be interesting to look at the Oriental Orthodox for cool tidbits to use with the Elenicoi. For instance, not having taken part in the iconoclast controversies, icons don't have the same emphasis as in Eastern Orthodoxy. A nearby Indian Orthodox Church has three altars with curtains in front (symbolizing the temple veil) instead of an iconstasis.

How odd, though, that they'd manage to have copies of all the gospels and epistles and such... were these often taken on sea voyages? I'd imagine they'd be expensive.

brandrinn · Post by **brandrinn** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:28 pm

Mr. Zompist sir, a question: WHY?????

why on God's green Earth (i mean, your green Almea) did you put terrestrial greeks in Erelae at all? why Greeks? why Christians? why Earthlings of any kind? it's like Tolkein having a group of left-handed messianic Jews named Reginald from our world, plopped down in the middle of Gondor.

Shm Jay · Post by **Shm Jay** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:06 pm

alephnaught wrote:Weren't the Elenicoi from Alexandria? Then I should think that they'd be Arians, as Alexandria at the time (and later the West) was a stronghold of Arianism (Arius was Alexandrian, after all!). The majority of bishops across the empire were Arians at the time, anyway.

Wasn?t St. Athanasius also Alexandrian?

dgoodmaniii · Post by **dgoodmaniii** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:25 pm

Shm Jay wrote:
alephnaught wrote:Weren't the Elenicoi from Alexandria? Then I should think that they'd be Arians, as Alexandria at the time (and later the West) was a stronghold of Arianism (Arius was Alexandrian, after all!). The majority of bishops across the empire were Arians at the time, anyway.
Wasn?t St. Athanasius also Alexandrian?

Yes, he was. Though in 325 the majority of bishops were not Arians, though it was getting there. That came later. It is entirely possible that these merchants were from St. Athanasius's following, since most of the people of Alexandria (and the east as a whole) were; it was officialdom that wasn't.

And I think it might be instructive to read some Barnabas and Ignatius of Antioch; you'll find that Christian practice and (fundamental) beliefs were quite unified even as early as the second century. The Loeb classical library has all the apostolic fathers in a single volume (with the Greek on facing pages!!!).

Post by **zompist** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:12 pm

brandrinn wrote:Mr. Zompist sir, a question: WHY?????

why on God's green Earth (i mean, your green Almea) did you put terrestrial greeks in Erelae at all? why Greeks? why Christians? why Earthlings of any kind? it's like Tolkein having a group of left-handed messianic Jews named Reginald from our world, plopped down in the middle of Gondor.

Dude, you gotta read something besides Tolkien once in awhile.

It fit the effect Tolkien wanted to create to avoid anything that too obviously belonged to our world.

But this isn't the only way to write fantasy. There's also a long tradition of moving between worlds, and in particular of visitors from our world exploring a fantasy world: Narnia, Barsoom, Alice, Thomas Covenant, Tormance, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Diane Duane. Some of the best recent fantasty, notably Tim Powers and Neil Gaiman, cheefully mixes our world with other realms and supernatural beings.

As to what effect I'm after, you'll have to wait to see how it appears in the stories, if it does.

brandrinn · Post by **brandrinn** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:22 pm

zompist wrote:
brandrinn wrote:Mr. Zompist sir, a question: WHY?????

why on God's green Earth (i mean, your green Almea) did you put terrestrial greeks in Erelae at all? why Greeks? why Christians? why Earthlings of any kind? it's like Tolkein having a group of left-handed messianic Jews named Reginald from our world, plopped down in the middle of Gondor.
Dude, you gotta read something besides Tolkien once in awhile. It fit the effect Tolkien wanted to create to avoid anything that too obviously belonged to our world.

But this isn't the only way to write fantasy. There's also a long tradition of moving between worlds, and in particular of visitors from our world exploring a fantasy world: Narnia, Barsoom, Alice, Thomas Covenant, Tormance, the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Diane Duane. Some of the best recent fantasty, notably Tim Powers and Neil Gaiman, cheefully mixes our world with other realms and supernatural beings.

As to what effect I'm after, you'll have to wait to see how it appears in the stories, if it does.

well, i was kind of curious as to why they were Greek Christians? were you studying Greek or Christian history at that time or something?

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