Of U, Y, ? and X-SAMPA

vec · Post by **vec** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:08 pm

I'm wondering, on the Modern Terrestrial Terminology page for Verdurian, you (Mark Rosenfelder) state that Verdurian lacks the Swedish distinction between u and y. I thought Verdurian ? was the same as Swedish y. What exactly are the IPA or X-SAMPA values for the Verdurian vowels. They're not given anywhere.

And something a little less important and interesting, (when) are you planning on unicoding the Verdurian Grammar?

So Haleza Grise · Post by **So Haleza Grise** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:58 pm

vegfarandi wrote:I'm wondering, on the Modern Terrestrial Terminology page for Verdurian, you (Mark Rosenfelder) state that Verdurian lacks the Swedish distinction between u and y. I thought Verdurian ? was the same as Swedish y. What exactly are the IPA or X-SAMPA values for the Verdurian vowels. They're not given anywhere.

And something a little less important and interesting, (when) are you planning on unicoding the Verdurian Grammar?

If you check the examples on the Verdurian phonology page, you'll see that Verdurian ? is /y/. The other vowels mainly have their cardinal values (with some variation on openness); with <?> representing /I/, and <?> mostly equivalent to /W/. I'm not sure, but I thought Swedish <y> was /i"/ or /u"/.

vec · Post by **vec** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:01 pm

I don't think so. But it might be... But I'm pretty sure it's just plain /y/.

Aszev · Post by **Aszev** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:15 pm

vegfarandi wrote:I don't think so. But it might be... But I'm pretty sure it's just plain /y/.

It is.

vec · Post by **vec** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:18 pm

Yay. Which brings me to my original question: Why isn't the Verdurian ? used for Swedish y?

Aszev · Post by **Aszev** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:25 pm

vegfarandi wrote:Yay. Which brings me to my original question: Why isn't the Verdurian ? used for Swedish y?

What words are you refering to? I just had a quick look, an I only found s?cel, from swedish cykel (not sykel as it stands), which follows the pattern you say isn't there...

Aszev · Post by **Aszev** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:26 pm

Now I also saw R?slan, from swedish Ryssland...

vec · Post by **vec** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:35 pm

Woops. Well, I just read the lines above, I didn't check the wordlists in detail. However, at the top of the page, Zompist says, that Verdurian doesn't have the u/y distinction of Swedish which seems to be complete falsehood.

Aszev · Post by **Aszev** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:46 pm

I've been thinking about that list as well, beacuse some of the swedish loan-words doesn't really follow the swedish general pronounciation, for example c?mera, sw. kamera /kA:mera/, would be more like c?mera (if i know the verdurian orthography right).

pharazon · Post by **pharazon** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:53 pm

Eh, Swedish <u> isn't /u/. It's some godforsaken central vowel(s), maybe with lip rounding or spreading or something stranger (or is that /y/?). <o> is used for /u/ and /U/. (the exact values may be wrong; I've tried to avoid Swedish vowels, for sanity's sake).

vec · Post by **vec** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:54 pm

Swedish u is /}/ I think. That's not far from /u/.

EDITED WRONG X-SAMPA.

Aszev · Post by **Aszev** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 5:59 pm

Swedish <u> is /}:/ and /8/.

Aszev · Post by **Aszev** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:02 pm

Is it just me or is my previous post very underlined?

pharazon · Post by **pharazon** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:23 pm

skrivihop wrote:Is it just me or is my previous post very underlined?

It's because you were talking about <u>, which happens to be the HTML tag for underline. When posting, check "Disable HTML in this post" if you're going to write things that overlap with HTML codes (similarly, disable BBCode if you want , , etc.).

(ok, I cheated here; I didn't disable BBCode, because I wanted to keep the quote. I'm using the sheer force of my will to keep the board from interpreting those codes.)

Post by **zompist** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:50 pm

vegfarandi wrote:I'm wondering, on the Modern Terrestrial Terminology page for Verdurian, you (Mark Rosenfelder) state that Verdurian lacks the Swedish distinction between u and y. I thought Verdurian ? was the same as Swedish y. What exactly are the IPA or X-SAMPA values for the Verdurian vowels. They're not given anywhere.

Verdurian i = /i/, ? = /y/. It's Swedish u that's the oddball-- centralized rounded u, so far as I can grasp from my sources.

And something a little less important and interesting, (when) are you planning on unicoding the Verdurian Grammar?

Dunno. I've got a number of projects underway right now, but that's a good one for times I feel uncreative.

Post by **zompist** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:02 pm

skrivihop wrote:I've been thinking about that list as well, beacuse some of the swedish loan-words doesn't really follow the swedish general pronounciation, for example c?mera, sw. kamera /kA:mera/, would be more like c?mera (if i know the verdurian orthography right).

Verdurians looking at Swedish would probably be uncertain about long/short a-- if I understand it rightly, the short vowels are laxed, and so distinguished more by quality than by length. So they'd probably give up on length and just transcribe both long and short vowels the same.

Are there other words that don't look right?

Aszev · Post by **Aszev** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:26 am

There is some that should have an /A/ instead of an /a/, plus some that have the stress on the wrong syllable, if I understood your question right.

zompist bboard

Of U, Y, ? and X-SAMPA

Of U, Y, ? and X-SAMPA

Re: Of U, Y, ? and X-SAMPA

Re: Of U, Y, ? and X-SAMPA