Flaidish ba7se 7empo

Questions or discussions about Almea or Verduria-- also the Incatena. Also good for postings in Almean languages.
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Flaidish ba7se 7empo

Post by zompist »

At long last, the Flaidish grammar is done!

http://www.zompist.com/flaidish.htm

Since I don't really like inventing roots (and yet did that aplenty for Elkar?l), I usually borrow vocabulary from all over. For Flaidish I decided to steal most of the vocabulary from a single source. See who can find what it is...

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Post by Shades Of Grey »

And I will be first to see it!

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Post by Warmaster »

Yikes! i didn't expect it for months yet. and since its my birthday today {31st may} this will make a great birthday present to look over. Thanks Mark! :D :D :D :D :D
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Post by Dudicon »

Wow, this is incredible! Great job, Zomp! I'm sure everyone is as extremely excited about this as I am!

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Post by Dudicon »

I have a question about the excerpt from "Jeerio Tries to Find a Job." At one point, the dragon says, "I guard Burntup's castle, and I am under very, very strict orders not to let a flaid, human, iliu, or even ant to cross!" Is this part of the original, fifth-grade, story? I only ask because of the reference to the iliu, and I wouldn't have thought you had created them yet by that point. Also, will we ever get to see this story in full?

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Post by laothar in disguise »

7alameyam 7aluataser 7enze flaidyx legmell frett 7ok jinnse 7y kerdi7. Rilick "fu","7il","le" 7embaa7 bru7po 7oj ?
Jaa7 riiler enbru7 "le" zynen "le" 7enze 7y riil ?

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Re: Flaidish ba7se 7empo

Post by hwhatting »

zompist wrote: Since I don't really like inventing roots (and yet did that aplenty for Elkar?l), I usually borrow vocabulary from all over. For Flaidish I decided to steal most of the vocabulary from a single source. See who can find what it is...
O.k., some of it seems to be from Hungarian - neev "name", tood "know", but maybe not the bulk of it. I can't check all, as I don't know much Hungarian, but whoever wants to check more thoroughly can do that using this:
http://dict.sztaki.hu/english-hungarian
(For me, neev was the giveaway on that partial source - I was in Budapest this week and had to fill in a hotel form.) Maybe gsandi can say more?
bul "share" seems to be Turkic b?l-.
Anybody else in for trying?
Best regards,
Hans-Werner

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Post by Glenn »

People posting in Flaidish already! I'm impressed.
(I didn't translate all of laothar's post, but I caught "frett 7ok jinnse 7y kredi7." :wink: )

Very interesting...I had difficulty with the glottal stops, but then I always do. I found the use of topic-comment and the verbal system the most interesting--including the use of irrealis and habitual, as in the text about the 7ubeer. (The pronoun system, 3rd/4th person distinction, and "backwards" view of time were also neat, although I'm more familiar with these by this point). I was most struck, however, by the use of conjunctive verbs in Flaidish--because this is an idea that I've long wanted to use myself, although the details are slightly different (inspired, like many of my language ideas, but the use of "double" verbs and nouns in Kazakh). Your conjunctive verbs are more ambitious than mine; I'd been mostly thinking of them in terms of a means of expressing aspect (inceptive, perfective, progressive). (Got to get to the drawing board...)

Do you think you'll be adding any more cultural information, as with the Elkaril entry? I'm aware that there is a fair amount embedded in the grammar already.

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Last edited by Glenn on Sat May 31, 2003 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flaidish ba7se 7empo

Post by Ran »

Nice language that's deceptively English-like on the surface. And you've also got pivotal verb constructions!! ;) ;)
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Post by zompist »

laothar in disguise wrote:7alameyam 7aluataser 7enze flaidyx legmell frett 7ok jinnse 7y kerdi7. Rilick "fu","7il","le" 7embaa7 bru7po 7oj ?
Jaa7 riiler enbru7 "le" zynen "le" 7enze 7y riil ?
Both; the rule is simply that you you the rilick pronouns for child referents. Thus, a child would use them for itself (and its siblings and friends), but would refer to adults using the adult pronouns. Adults will use them when referring to children, and 7il when addressing children, but they'd use 7ok to refer to themselves, no matter who they're talking to.

(As a partial exception: with children just learning to speak, some parents use the child pronouns exclusively, figuring it's easier. And as the grammar notes, in moments of great emotion even adults may use the child pronouns to refer to themselves or loved ones.)

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Post by zompist »

Dudicon wrote:At one point, the dragon says, "I guard Burntup's castle, and I am under very, very strict orders not to let a flaid, human, iliu, or even ant to cross!" Is this part of the original, fifth-grade, story? I only ask because of the reference to the iliu, and I wouldn't have thought you had created them yet by that point. Also, will we ever get to see this story in full?
That's the one correction I made to the text; in the original I wrote "elf".

Someday I'll probably post the story...

Glenn, I decided to put the anthropological information on the flaids in the Almeopedia, which will probably be my next Almean project.

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Post by Shades Of Grey »

Call me superficial but I find the 7's annoying to look at and very unaesthetically pleasing. Are you ever going to replace it with anything?

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Post by Glenn »

zompist wrote:Glenn, I decided to put the anthropological information on the flaids in the Almeopedia, which will probably be my next Almean project.
Thanks for filling us in--looking forward to it. :)

(And the Jeerio story too, of course. :wink: )

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Post by zompist »

Shades Of Grey wrote:Call me superficial but I find the 7's annoying to look at and very unaesthetically pleasing. Are you ever going to replace it with anything?
In the original Word document I used the IPA glottal stop symbol. Unfortunately it doesn't display on my computer, and I really didn't want to use the underlined ? I used on the numbers page.

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Post by butsuri »

Couldn't you use an apostrophe? That's pretty standard, and an English speaker will probably even pronounce it correctly in intervocalic position. Of course, then there's a slight problem if an initial or final glottal stop ends up next to a quote mark. But using a numeral just strikes me as perverse - it's something I'd go to almost any length to avoid, myself. You could use <<this kind of thing>> for quotes in Flaidish, then the apostrophe wouldn't run into them.

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Post by eodrakken »

I haven't had a chance to sit down and really look through the grammar yet, but I will say this: I'm very impressed with the story excerpt - most adults can't write prose that clear and engaging, much less fifth-graders! I'd love to see the whole thing, though I wonder if you haven't considered getting it published as a children's book?

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Post by Warmaster »

the symbol 7 {though not actually THAT symbol} was used as an abreviation of "And, Ond" in Old English. thats the only place i've seen it used as anything but the numeral. i must say it is a little jaring, but far less so than sticking question marks all over the place.
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Post by Drydic »

Zompist wrote:Since I don't really like inventing roots (and yet did that aplenty for Elkar?l), I usually borrow vocabulary from all over. For Flaidish I decided to steal most of the vocabulary from a single source. See who can find what it is...
French, Russian, and vague ramblings, changed slightly, a lite whisper of spice, and then taken out and remixed, this time making a better mixture.
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Post by zompist »

butsuri wrote:Couldn't you use an apostrophe? That's pretty standard, and an English speaker will probably even pronounce it correctly in intervocalic position. Of course, then there's a slight problem if an initial or final glottal stop ends up next to a quote mark. But using a numeral just strikes me as perverse - it's something I'd go to almost any length to avoid, myself. You could use <<this kind of thing>> for quotes in Flaidish, then the apostrophe wouldn't run into them.
Ugh, no; apostrophes are a horrible choice for a phoneme. They are, and look like, punctuation. The left and right quotes were once used for transliterating Arabic, but scholars these days like to use left and right half-circles, which look much more like letters. I'm pretty sure I borrowed the idea of using numbers from seeing Arabic transliterations on Usenet.

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Post by So Haleza Grise »

Thoroughly enjoyable reading! I especially like the way words like tutan?l are spelt tootanel. If only English did that more frequently . . .

First of, a couple of queries: how are pronouns and other such open monosyllable words pronounced - eg. is se /sE/ or /si:/? Basically, what I'm asking is "which rule takes priority in this case - the final vowel lengthening rule or the rule about monosyllabic vowels being short?

Secondly, I know the word tresspo, but what are the Flaidish words for "good" and "evil"? Good is mell, is it not?

Oh, and where does Cu?zi p&#257;uriu for "flaid" come from?

And finally, a couple of what may be typos, or possibly just my misinterpretation. Firstly,
Flaidish grammar wrote: Flaids call this the nonpast tense (scrifel);
Shouldn't that be roscrifel?

Secondly, that sentence which previously made an appearance here:

Se von mossro sery crettert.
you not wash-PART-DEF your hand-PL-ACC
You didn't wash your hands.

Shouldn't this be mosspo?

In the phatic phrases section:
7ok lack liggoren miffich 7ever.

The morphemic gloss and the fuller translation differ over whether this means "I am 28 years old" and "I am 18 years old" (I believe the first is correct?)

In a couple of examples (one in the S-O pronouns section, and somewhere else I now can't find . . .) the word for "they" is men rather than yau.

There are a couple other ones I thought I noticed too, but now I can't find. Mainly they were to do with inconsistent doubling of consonants and other such trivial things. I'll let you know if I can see any of them :mrgreen:

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Post by laothar »

7okry kusmod !

As for the language, I still don't recognize it :( It doesn't seem to be Hungarian, according to the online dictionary. However, the words mentioned by Hans-Werner could be Slavic borrowings... So I would say some Slavic language... Russian ?

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Post by butsuri »

zompist wrote: Ugh, no; apostrophes are a horrible choice for a phoneme. They are, and look like, punctuation.
I'm sure the Hawaiians, Navajo, Ojibwe, Tzotzil etc. don't think so. (Alright, Hawaiian strictly uses a reversed apostrophe, but a normal one is often substituted.) I can't think of any natlang written in Roman script as standard with a phonemic glottal stop represented by anything other than an apostrophe.

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Post by Julao »

Its too easy to overlook an apostrophe for me, as an English speaker, because in English they dont make a sound! The seven is nice because seeing it instructs me, "Close your glottis!!" :P

Mark, your map of Flora, on the right hand side, the islands' mountains seem to be differently shaded than the ones on the left. Is that a mistake, or what was its intention?
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Post by Glenn »

laothar wrote:7okry kusmod !

As for the language, I still don't recognize it :( It doesn't seem to be Hungarian, according to the online dictionary. However, the words mentioned by Hans-Werner could be Slavic borrowings... So I would say some Slavic language... Russian ?
Definitely not Russian, I would say...I've studied Russian (as the folks on the board have heard too many times already :wink: ), and the Russian loanwords in Verdurian jump right out at me--Flaidish is nothing like that, and it doesn't seem very Slavic in general (although I could be wrong). I like Drydic's proposal of Verdurian :) , but that seems to apply to the words specifically borrowed from Verdurian; the core vocabulary of Flaidish is something different. Hmm...I dunno. (For all I know, it could be some crazy reworking of English--it wouldn't surprise me. :wink: )

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Post by butsuri »

Yau zeno nolleren.
Hee hee :D

Is this valid Flaidish?
Seer mertse 7y tarjt ko7ys.
The Flaidish metaphor for time is opposite ours. For the flaids, the past is forward; the future is behind.
This isn't quite as alien to English as it appears at first - consider the spatial and temporal meanings of "before" and "after" (although I think the underlying metaphor is different).

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