zompist bboard

?dhi esht?n. L? dan belhu. Tena kirez?l Zompista: Im k?t? rhu leli foli meta k? rhu im a hili, hon? im ?tr? shk

Nikolai wrote:?dhi esht?n. L? dan belhu. Tena kirez?l Zompista: Im k?t? rhu leli foli meta k? rhu im a hili, hon? im ?tr? shk??

I'm missing something in the middle here... you mean, which ones do this on Earth, or on Almea? Or something else entirely?

Shpakhn? (Dichi s? pigr?), im k?to rhu Erdho (Im k? hili shpaktu 'Earth'?) imshtani k?? Im k?to rhu Erdho a imshtan??

'Imshtan?' ? melhu a o?l.

'Earth' z?th shpakh? Ikumen (ish ferediri rhui).

A rhu ?lo k?shto ? tot Chibeno (Japanese).

My favorite example: male and female versions of the same dialog.

female:
A: Maa, go-rippa na o-niwa de gozaamasu wa nee. Shibafu ga hirobiro to shite ite, kekkoo de gozaamasu wa nee.
My, what a splendid garden you have there-- the lawn is so nice and bug, it's certainly wonderful, isn't it!
B: Iie, nan desu ka, chitto mo teire ga yukitodokimasen mono de gozaimasu kara, moo, nakanaka itsumo kirei ni shite oku wake ni wa mairimasen no de gozaamasu yo.
Oh no, not at all, we don't take care of it at all any more, so it simply doesn't always look as nice as we would like it to.
A: Aa, sai de gozamashoo nee. Kore dake o-hiroin de gozaamasu kara, hitootori o-teire asobasu no ni datte taihen de gozamasho nee. Demo maa, sore de mo, itsumo yoku o-teire ga yukitodoite irasshaimasu wa. Itsumo honto ni o-kirei de kekkoo de gozaamasu wa.
Oh, I don't think so at all-- but since it's a big garden, of course it must be quite a tremendous task to take care of it all by yourself; but even so, you certainly do manage to make it look nice all the time; it certainly is nice and pretty any time one sees it.
B: Iie, chitto mo sonna koto gozaamasen wa.
No, I'm afraid not, not at all.

male:
A: Ii niwa da naa?
It's a nice garden, isn't it?
B: Un.
Mm.

LOL!

Well, if you see it like this, every language has male and female dialects.

I've seen that Japanese example before. What book is it from?

Without bothering to decipher the Barakhinei -- I assume the question was where the separate male/female phatic particles came from?

I remember when I was told that my Japanese sounded a bit feminine... because I sometimes hung around the Japanese girls at school while I was learning Japanese and picked up some things from them; this was before I was aware of the fact that boys and girls spoke differently in Japanese.

Or when my Japanese teacher told me of how she shocked her parents by speaking "boy language" with her younger brother... she said it was because he was growing up speaking "girl language" since that's what he heard from his older sisters, and she wanted to spare him the embarrassment later of not being able to speak "boy language". So since he had to learn it somehow, she would speak it to him. Interesting stuff.

zompist wrote:Ii niwa da naa?

Reminds me of the tonguetwister "Niwa ni wa niwa niwatori ga iru", which I also heard expanded as "Uraniwa ni wa niwa, niwa ni wa niwa niwatori ga iru" = "(In the back garden there are two, ) in the garden there are two chickens".

Raphael wrote:Well, if you see it like this, every language has male and female dialects.

Sure, but Japanese (and Barakhinei) grammaticalize it to a greater extent than most other languages. Japanese has different personal pronouns and phatic particles; note also that the woman says o-niwa (garden + honorific) while the man just says niwa. I don't know if the phonology differs between the sexes as in Barakhinei, but it does in Argentine Spanish: <ll> is pronounced as :sh but women pronounce it in a longer and more emphatic way.

In some cases sociolinguists have found that women are more conscious of prestige dialects; e.g. in Alsace women are more likely than men to use French rather than Alsatian.

Butsuri, I got the Japanese example from Anna Wierzbicka, but she got it from R. Miller.

Philip, my friend Harry had the same problem as you when learning Japanese: his tutor was a woman, so he ended up speaking in too feminine a way. (I'm told that in Ranma 1/2, Ranma speaks like a boy even in female form, which adds a level of humor and character almost impossible to translate into English. Someone needs to make a Barakhinei translation, I guess...)

I remember when I was told that my Japanese sounded a bit feminine... because I sometimes hung around the Japanese girls at school while I was learning Japanese and picked up some things from them; this was before I was aware of the fact that boys and girls spoke differently in Japanese.

Funny -- my Japanese teachers complain that I sound like a middle-aged man.

zompist wrote: Butsuri, I got the Japanese example from Anna Wierzbicka, but she got it from R. Miller.

I think I must have got it from Miller - I don't remember the author of the book I think I read it in, but I know I haven't read Wierzbicka (although I intend to, at some point). Searching, there's a book by Miller called The Japanese Language, 1967, which sounds like the right title and age for the book I read in the school library.

zompist wrote:I don't know if the phonology differs between the sexes as in Barakhinei, but it does in Argentine Spanish: <ll> is pronounced as :sh but women pronounce it in a longer and more emphatic way.

That reminds me of this nugget from Katzner's The Languages of the World:

A curious feature of the language is that the letter k is pronounced k by men but ts by women, while the combination rk is pronounced rk by men but tsts by women. Thus the Chukchi word for "walrus" is pronounced kyrky by men but tsytstsy by women.

(See, for example, http://www.worldlanguage.com/Languages/Chukchi.htm.)

Tena a ?tr? kirez?l et Barakhinei: laint? K?nz? Laint ? ?r?t p?l?mh? Chibena shk?? 'Haiku' ?r p?l?mh? hil

Olont? kokue? K?t ? Laint shk

S?k fozek'! Foli shpakh? 'Liant' kl?t.

Nikolai wrote:S?k fozek'! Foli shpakh? 'Liant' kl?t.

Et liant s? shpakh? shklel! Melhu mudr? kirez?l ma!

Well, you know, poetry is not my strong suit. I can tell you the relevant beginning points (Cuzeian poetry was mostly by number of syllables in a line; Cadhinor poetry is discussed a bit in the material on Verdurian verse; and as with most things literary in Barakhinei, poetry was first written by women), but the best thing is to try it yourself and see what you come up with.

(The phatic particles, by the way, are part of the spoken colloquial language-- you wouldn't put them in poetry unless you want a very colloquial effect.)

Well, I began a little story done in psuedo-poetry (though later it will be proven that said character was doing it wrong). It's based on 10-syllable lines, with two lines rhyming (any two lines).

Considering the fact that the bodies of text are written by women, I decided to write this based on the d?nibor, day-book, of a young woman. There'll be an introduction, followed by the typical three-stanzas of the poetry form:

Sonachil?l shpakh? a s?th ch? lach? rizund? im d?shtora. Teni d?nibor, poche s?k rizundh?

Im eri d?nibor, d?shtpao B?ziandach

Eri pidi irzobr? zobrela.
Irzobr? ku feredir os?kul.
Os?kul nom? chem a zobrela.

Pr?d-d?n, os?kul ? shpakh?l a s?th.
"Nhek, ler pidi ? melhu domer ma."
"Or,” feti, “Dimt? ch? dom?re s??"

Sup firi nen? tot, shpakh? s?, "S?k."
Il d?na ?teri ch? fut pidi.
Il os?kul feredir fut kochi.

(If you're wondering what is wrong, two lines shouldn't rhyme, it should be done in introduction-action-result for the line setup, and is written in sets of 1 stanza, 3 stanzas, or 7.)

I'm very impressed... trying to make lines come out right and rhyme in a foreign language isn't easy! I finally got around to translating this today... might as well spoil the mystery for others by posting it.

Sonachil?l told me that I should write in decameter. I had a journal, so why not write?

In my journal, 14 beshana

My father wins a game / Wins against a Verdurian joker / A joker named a card to a game
Yesterday the joker had spoken to me / 'Girl, your father is very handsome!' / 'Yes,' I said, 'You think that I'm pretty?'
After I had said that, he told me, 'No.' / Then I knew that he wants father / The screwed-up Verdurian wants to have sex.

I wasn't sure about a couple of things... first, the word d?shtor; is the -or from Verdurian -ora? And is "chem" the Verdurian word for 'card'? I had trouble making sense of that line.

So what happens next...?

I wasn't sure about a couple of things... first, the word d?shtor; is the -or from Verdurian -ora? And is "chem" the Verdurian word for 'card'? I had trouble making sense of that line.

Oh, sorry about the lack of translation notes... Chem is a direct borrowing. I wasn't sure what 'card' would be in Barakhinei, but since they're dealing with a Verdurian, he would use his native word, no? And yea, -or is a direct borrowing from Verdurian.

To fix a few translation notes:
l.3 Os?kul nom? chem a zobrela should read, 'The joker called the game 'cards.' I left 'cards' in singular for some inane reason--might be from my Verdurian ignorance--especially in declining a noun.

l.9 Il os?kul feredir fut kochi. was translated right, however, the implied (and thusly omitted) object was stated in line 8. So it would be translated into English, which needs the object, as "That screwed-up Verdurian wants to have sex with father." She says this as she doesn't know what the term for two getting hitched would be.

And also, the definite article is implied, isn't it?

Time for the 2nd part:

Sonachil?l ibr? eri d?nibor...shpakh? a s?th ch? rizundi tot im mal hili. Tena s? piti!

Im eri d?nibor, d?zhpanth B?ziandach.

7. Os?kul feredir lhu er K?b?kh.
8. Laod? fel? pidi ?liden.
9. Poche? Poche d?bri a nh?so den?

10. Midi, Midi, poche pidi mank??
11. Poche pidi mank?, faok? t??
12. Midi, nen a s?th! L? shkri k?t skhriva.

13. Midi foi s?th a belurech dom.
14. Shkriva ch? eri pidi s?k lhu t?.
15. Ak d?b t?n? kedi pidi prozm??

The idiom <i>Tena s? piti</i> means 'I don't care' (yes, I realise it translates into 'I have not a drink.' As in, 'how can I toast to that?')

10. <i>Midi</i> is a pet form of <i>midor</i>; compare, <i>pidi.</i>
15. <i>D?b</i> is 1st person singular of d?bri (what comes of the r after the i is dropped? I think, 'drop the r!') It's meant to mean, "Do I deserve..." <i>kedi pidi prozm?</i> is an idiom meaning, "what might become of father?"
ll13-15. There is some debate on how this all rhymes, may be from an elision or a nasalisation, that is -om is pronounced [?~] or [?]. Being open, it rhymes with t?.[/quote]