Romanization challenge thread

[R.Rusanov]

It's a legacy of supershort vowels, called yers, one of which was <ǐ> (a supershort /i/) that subsequently disappeared in most Slavic languages in a contextual manner described by Havlik's law, leaving behind palatalization.

Thus *mekǐ (sword) became *metʃǐ became *metʃ, *dorgostǐ (dearness) became драгост and drogość in various Slavic modes ...

I described it a bit more simply above because the average Pole is Slavic and Slavs that are fond of linguistics have almost always researched the histories of their own languages first.

[2+3 clusivity]

In one language of mine there is a three-way contrast between aspirated, unaspirated, and implosive for bilabial and dental stops.

For various reasons, I'm not interested in doing it like <ph - p - b>, <th - t - d> and would rather do <p - b - ?>, <t - d - ?>. Is using <bb> and <dd> for /ɓ/ and /ɗ/ especially unintuitive? If so, is there a better option? I'm not really interested in using <ɓ ɗ> because I think it is kind of ugly and reminds me too much of phonemic transcription rather than simple Romanization. I suppose I could also use something like <ḃ ḋ> or <ḅ ḍ>.

How about <p - b - bh> and <t - d - dh>. If you are going for something a little odd, maybe <w/v/f - p - b> <s - t - d> or <p - b - b1> and <t - d - d1>


If /ɓ/ and /ɗ/ are restricted, doubles might make sense. A few languages i've known of have had implosives from earlier geminates--Sindhi is one IIRC.

[Nortaneous]

For various reasons, I'm not interested in doing it like <ph - p - b>, <th - t - d> and would rather do <p - b - ?>, <t - d - ?>. Is using <bb> and <dd> for /ɓ/ and /ɗ/ especially unintuitive? If so, is there a better option? I'm not really interested in using <ɓ ɗ> because I think it is kind of ugly and reminds me too much of phonemic transcription rather than simple Romanization. I suppose I could also use something like <ḃ ḋ> or <ḅ ḍ>.

bunch of east asian lang romanizations based on pinyin use doubles for voiced, occasionally even <ss> /z/ etc

overdots are cluttered and irish but underdots would work since they can mean just about everything

[clawgrip]

Thanks to both of you. I might actually go with the underdot because I wasn't too big on the doubled consonants.

[Pole, the]

It's a legacy of supershort vowels, called yers, one of which was <ǐ> (a supershort /i/) that subsequently disappeared in most Slavic languages in a contextual manner described by Havlik's law, leaving behind palatalization.

Thus *mekǐ (sword) became *metʃǐ became *metʃ, *dorgostǐ (dearness) became драгост and drogość in various Slavic modes ...

Synchronically, not diachronically, kurwa.

[R.Rusanov]

Ah, I missed that. Well, synchronically it doesn't really hold up, since most speakers have lost collective cognizance of the previous vocality of 'ь' and 'ъ' such as they once may have had. But iotization from dropped ǐ never contrasts with a plain /j/ word finally or interconsonantally*, so one may use whatever he deigns for plain /j/ in that case.

* basically, Russian doesn't have syllables of the form ˣostj to contrast with those like osʲtʲ < ostǐ .

[Haplogy]

In one language of mine there is a three-way contrast between aspirated, unaspirated, and implosive for bilabial and dental stops.

For various reasons, I'm not interested in doing it like <ph - p - b>, <th - t - d> and would rather do <p - b - ?>, <t - d - ?>. Is using <bb> and <dd> for /ɓ/ and /ɗ/ especially unintuitive? If so, is there a better option? I'm not really interested in using <ɓ ɗ> because I think it is kind of ugly and reminds me too much of phonemic transcription rather than simple Romanization. I suppose I could also use something like <ḃ ḋ> or <ḅ ḍ>.

/ɓ ɗ/ <ƀ đ>, <qb qd>, <'b 'd>, <ʔb ʔd>

[Click]

Crazian

/m͊ n͊ n̠͊ ɳ͊ ɲ͊ ŋ͊/
/m n n̠ ɳ ɲ ŋ/
/b d d̠ ɖ ɟ ɡ/
/p t t̠ ʈ c k ʡ ʔ/
/m̥ s ɬ s̠ ʂ ç x ʜ h/
/v͋ ð̞ ɹ l ɻ j ɰ/
/r/

/i e a o u ai au ei eu oi ou/
/á ā à ǎ â/

(C)(C)(C)(C)V

The consonant cluster has either equally sonorous consonants or the sonority increases towards the vowel.
Sonority hierarchy (from less to more sonorous): obstruents (including the approximants and /m̥/), nasals (except /m̥/) and denasals, /r/
No double, triple etc. consonants permitted.
No mixed-voice obstruent clusters (/m̥/ patterns as voiceless fricative and /v͋ ð̞ ɹ l ɻ j ɰ/ pattern as voiced fricatives).

/pkʔtáɟð̞rū ɰjěǔ v͋ŋô n̠͊ǐ m̥ʡjóí s̠cpèì rō d̠n̠ɻáí ôû ʈɬǔ jŋáú pʔǒ ɹâ ɖɳē/

My try:

/m͊ n͊ n̠͊ ɳ͊ ɲ͊ ŋ͊/ ‹m· n· nh· ṇ· ny· ng·›
/m n n̠ ɳ ɲ ŋ/ ‹m n nh ṇ ny ng›
/b d d̠ ɖ ɟ ɡ/ ‹b d dt ḍ dy g›
/p t t̠ ʈ c k ʡ ʔ/ ‹p t td ṭ ty k q '›
/m̥ s ɬ s̠ ʂ ç x ʜ h/ ‹f s lh sz ṣ sy hy qh h›
/v͋ ð̞ l ɹ ɻ j ɰ/ ‹v z l zs ẓ zy gh›
/r/ ‹r›

/i e a o u ai au ei eu oi ou/ ‹ı e a o u aı au eı eu oı ou›
/á ā à ǎ â/ ‹á a à ȧ â›

Pk'tádyzru ghzyėu vngô ṇ·i fqzyóı sztypèu ro dtnháu û ṭlhu zyngáu p'ȯ zsâ ḍṇe.
/pkʔtáɟð̞rū ɰjěǔ v͋ŋô n̠͊ǐ m̥ʡjóí s̠cpèù rō d̠n̠ɻáú û ʈɬǔ jŋáú pʔǒ ɹâ ɖɳē/

[sangi39]

Provided my version over on CBB

Crazian:

/m͊ n͊ n̠͊ ɳ͊ ɲ͊ ŋ͊/ m’ n’ ň’ ṇ’ ń’ ŋ’
/m n n̠ ɳ ɲ ŋ/ m n ň ṇ ń ŋ
/b d d̠ ɖ ɟ ɡ/ b d ǧ ḍ ǵ~j* g
/p t t̠ ʈ c k ʡ ʔ/ p t č ṭ ć~c* k ĉ q
/m̥ s ɬ s̠ ʂ ç x ʜ h/ f s ł š ṣ ś x ħ h
/v͋ ð̞ ɹ l ɻ j ɰ/ v z ž l ṛ j~y* w
/r/ r

/i e a o u ai au ei eu oi ou/ i e a o u ai au ei eu oi ou
/˥ ˧ ˩ ˥˩ ˩˥/ â a ǎ à á

*I wasn't quite sure how to represent /c ɟ j/. c j y cuts down on diacritics and the whole argument that gets brought up of "you have č ć ĉ but no c" (despite, of course, German's use of ck ch with no plain c (IIRC, as a result of the history of written German, but still)), but using ć ǵ j puts them in line with the representation of the palatal fricative ś /ç/.

Alternatively, I could use c for /k/ and keep č ć ĉ...

Anyway, I'm happy with the rest of it

/pkʔtáɟð̞rū ɰjěǔ v͋ŋô n̠͊ǐ m̥ʡjóí s̠cpèì rō d̠n̠ɻáí ôû ʈɬǔ jŋáú pʔǒ ɹâ ɖɳē/

Pkqtáǵzru wjěu vŋô ň’ǐ fĉjói šćpèi ro ǧňṛái ôu ṭłǔ jŋáu pqǒ žâ ḍṇe

Pkqtájzru wyěu vŋô ň’ǐ fĉyói šcpèi ro ǧňṛái ôu ṭłǔ yŋáu pqǒ žâ ḍṇe

[Haplogy]

Crazian:

/m͊ n͊ n̠͊ ɳ͊ ɲ͊ ŋ͊/ <m' ṅ' n' ṇ' ń' ņ'>
/m n n̠ ɳ ɲ ŋ/ <m ṅ n ṇ ń ņ>
/b d d̠ ɖ ɟ ɡ/ <b ḋ d ḍ ǵ g>
/p t t̠ ʈ c k ʡ ʔ/ <p t ṫ t ṭ ḱ k x q>
/m̥ s ɬ s̠ ʂ ç x ʜ h/ <f ṡ ł s ṣ ś ḥ ħ h>
/v͋ ð̞ ɹ l ɻ j ɰ/ <v z r l ẓ y w>
/r/ <ř>

/i e a o u ai au ei eu oi ou/ <ı e a o u aı au eı eu oı ou>
/á ā à ǎ â/ <ȧ a ạ á à>

Pkqtȧǵzřu wyéu vņò n'í fxyȯı sḱpẹı řo dnẓȧı òu ṭłú yņȧu pqó rà ḍṇe.
/pkʔtáɟð̞rū ɰjěǔ v͋ŋô n̠͊ǐ m̥ʡjóí s̠cpèì rō d̠n̠ɻáí ôû ʈɬǔ jŋáú pʔǒ ɹâ ɖɳē/

[Nortaneous]

Here, have my first conlang:

/p b t d k g/
/f v θ ð s z ʃ ʒ x h/
/m n r j w/
/l ɫ ɬ ɮ/
/a æ ɛ e ø i o ʊ u/

nozʊdvɛn vrɛjas vaxra tol ɛzat. lodvɛn i ðulvɛn xelat, tolaj vinasɛlɛt. ɬifɛθɛʃ moʃan onan, vaxɛθɛʃ vlaxat.

[Nortaneous]

/m͊ n͊ n̠͊ ɳ͊ ɲ͊ ŋ͊/ m’ n’ nh’ ṇ’ ñ’ ŋ’
/m n n̠ ɳ ɲ ŋ/ m n nh ṇ ñ ŋ
/b d d̠ ɖ ɟ ɡ/ b d dh ḍ j g
/p t t̠ ʈ c k ʡ ʔ/ p t th ṭ c k ħ ’
/m̥ s ɬ s̠ ʂ ç x ʜ h/ ṃ s ł sh ṣ ç x xh h
/v͋ ð̞ ɹ l ɻ j ɰ/ v đ rh l ṛ y w
/r/ r

/i e a o u ai au ei eu oi ou/ i e a o u ai au ei eu oi ou
/˥ ˧ ˩ ˥˩ ˩˥/ á a à â ǎ


/pkʔtáɟð̞rū ɰjěǔ v͋ŋô n̠͊ǐ m̥ʡjóí s̠cpèì rō d̠n̠ɻáí ôû ʈɬǔ jŋáú pʔǒ ɹâ ɖɳē/

Pk’tájđru wyěu vŋô nh’i ṃħyói shcpèi ro dnhṛái ôu ṭłǔ yŋáu p’o rhâ ḍṇe.

Or replace all the Ch digraphs with carons:

Pk’tájđru wyěu vŋô ň’i ṃħyói šcpèi ro dňṛái ôu ṭłǔ yŋáu p’o řâ ḍṇe.

Or if you like ASCII:

/m͊ n͊ n̠͊ ɳ͊ ɲ͊ ŋ͊/ m’ n’ nh’ nr’ ny’ ng’
/m n n̠ ɳ ɲ ŋ/ m n nh nr ny ng
/b d d̠ ɖ ɟ ɡ/ b d dh dr j g
/p t t̠ ʈ c k ʡ ʔ/ p t th tr c k q ’
/m̥ s ɬ s̠ ʂ ç x ʜ h/ f s lh sh sr ch x qh h
/v͋ ð̞ ɹ l ɻ j ɰ/ v z rh l rr y w
/r/ r

/i e a o u ai au ei eu oi ou/ i e a o u ai au ei eu oi ou
/˥ ˧ ˩ ˥˩ ˩˥/ ad a ab af ar

/pkʔtáɟð̞rū ɰjěǔ v͋ŋô n̠͊ǐ m̥ʡjóí s̠cpèì rō d̠n̠ɻáí ôû ʈɬǔ jŋáú pʔǒ ɹâ ɖɳē/
Pk'tad-jzru wyeur vngof nh'ir fqyoid shcpeib ro dnhraid ouf trlhur yngaud p'or rhaf dnre.

[Micropterus]

Norty

/p b t d k g/ <p b t d k g>
/f v θ ð s z ʃ ʒ x h/ <f v þ ð s z š ž x h>
/m n r j w/ <m n r y w>
/l ɫ ɬ ɮ/ <l † ‡ |>
/a æ ɛ e ø i o ʊ u/ <a ä é e ë i o u ü

/nozʊdvɛn vrɛjas vaxra tol ɛzat. lodvɛn i ðulvɛn xelat, tolaj vinasɛlɛt. ɬifɛθɛʃ moʃan onan, vaxɛθɛʃ vlaxat/
<Nozudvén vréyas vaxra tol ézat. Lodvén i ðulvén xelat, tolay vinasélét. †iféþeš mošan onan, vaxéþéš vlaxat>

Diacritics that stand out on <l> are hard to come by

[Nortaneous]

protip: check the bottom of the wikipedia page on the letter. ƚ ⱡ are letters that actually exist

Nozudvén vréyas vaxra tol ézat. Lodvén i ðulvén xelat, tolay vinasélét. Ƚiféþeš mošan onan, vaxéþéš vlaxat

edit: my orthography was
Nozudven vrejas vaxra tol ezat. Lodven i dhuulven xeelat, tolaj vinaselet. Cifethesz moszan onan, vaxethesz vlaxat!
or
Nozudven vrejas vaxra tol ezat. Lodven i ðúlven xélat, tolaj vinaselet. Cifeþeš mošan onan, vaxeþeš vlaxat!
but that is stupid, and now I would probably use <c đ> for the dental fricatives and <ł ⱡ> for the lateral fricatives. for some odd reason I used belted l for the voiced lateral fricative

[Micropterus]

Chipotle
Plosives: /p t k/
Nasals: /m n/
Fricatives: /ɸ s x ɣ/
Affricates: /ts ps ks/
Vowels: /a æ ø ə i ɤ u ʊ j w/


It has a CV(C) structure with final consonants being /n m s/
(/j/ and /w/ are starting sounds as well)
Possible Diphtongs and Triphtongs are:
Diphtongs: jV wV Vʊ V:
Triphtongs: VjV VwV V:ʊ

Example text: Pa.pan tæ.tæm kø.køs mə.nə ɸi.si.xɤ.ɣu tsʊ:ʊ.psaju ksəwa.wu

[Acid Badger]

Chipotle
Plosives: /p t k/ <p t k>
Nasals: /m n/ <m n>
Fricatives: /ɸ s x ɣ/ <f s h g>
Affricates: /ts ps ks/ <ts ps ks>
Vowels: /a æ ø ə i ɤ u ʊ j w/ <a e ö ă i ŏ u o y w> or <a e ö ã i õ u o y w> - The vowels are very weird though.
Long vowels are doubled.

Papan tetem kökös mănă fisihŏgu tsoopsaju ksăwawu
Papan tetem kökös mãnã fisihõgu tsoopsaju ksãwawu
/pa.pan tæ.tæm kø.køs mə.nə ɸi.si.xɤ.ɣu tsʊ:ʊ.psaju ksəwa.wu/ (I'm not sure how to deal with that /ʊ:ʊ/)

[Herr Dunkel]

/p t k/ <p t k>
/m n/ <m n>
/ɸ s x ɣ/ <f s h g>
/ts ps ks/ <ts ps ks>
/a æ ø ə i ɤ u ʊ j w/ <a â ô e i o u û j w> or <a ä e ë i o u ü j w>
V: = <VV>
jV wV Vʊ V: <jV wV Vü VV> or <jV wV Vû V:>
VjV VwV V:ʊ <VjV VwV VVü> or <VjV VwV V:û>
CVT | C = {n m s}

/papan tætæm køkøs mənə ɸisixɤɣu tsʊ:ʊpsaju ksəwawu/
<papan tätäm kekes mënë fisihogu tsüüupsaju ksëwawu>
<papan tâtâm kôkôs mene fisihogu tsuû:ûpsaju ksewawu>

You can replace <V:> with <VV> too, but <V:> has the bonus merit of distinguishing /ʊ.ʊ/ and /ʊ:/

[Nortaneous]

Chipotle
Plosives: /p t k/ <p t k>
Nasals: /m n/ <m n>
Fricatives: /ɸ s x ɣ/ <f s h g>
Affricates: /ts ps ks/ <ts ps x>
Vowels: /a æ ø ə i ɤ u ʊ j w/ <a ä ö e i o ou u y v>

pa.pan tæ.tæm kø.køs mə.nə ɸi.si.xɤ.ɣu tsʊ:ʊ.psaju ksəwa.wu

papan tätäm kökös mene fisihogou tsūupsayou xevavou

edit: duh, treat diphthongs with <w> (and /w/ <w> i guess) and then that frees up double vowels
papan tätäm kökös mene fisihogou tsuuwpsayou xewawou

Plosives: /p t k/ <π τ κ>
Nasals: /m n/ <μ ν>
Fricatives: /ɸ s x ɣ/ <φ ς χ γ>
Affricates: /ts ps ks/ <ζ ψ ξ>
Vowels: /a æ ø ə i ɤ u ʊ j w/ <α ᾳ ο ε ι ω ου υ ι β>

pa.pan tæ.tæm kø.køs mə.nə ɸi.si.xɤ.ɣu tsʊ:ʊ.psaju ksəwa.wu[/quote]
παπαν τᾳτᾳμ κοκος μενε φισιχωγου ζῡυψαιου ξεβαβου
papan taitaim kokos mene phisikhôgou zūupsaiou xevavou

[Micropterus]

So, I came up with a phonology for a sister language for Chipotle, for loanwords and stuff - not to mention that I might use on my conworld - anyway, here it is:

Nacho
Vowels: a ɑ ʌ i ɪ u
Plosives: p b t d c k kʰ
Nasal: m n ɲ ŋ
R&L: ɽ l ɬ
Fricatives: θ ð ɕ ʑ ç
Diphones: kθ tɕ dʑ
Diphtongs: V: Vɪ

CV(N,R) where N are Nasals and R are Rhotics/Liquids
i,ɪ and u can be extra short when ending a syllable.

Example text: pambɑ: baɽitʌŋ daɪmun ɲadicuka kʰʌliɬ kθulu ðiɕanɕi θaçuʑi dʑatɕĭ

[Herr Dunkel]

a ɑ ʌ i ɪ u <a å o i y u>
p b t d c k kʰ <p b t d c g k>
m n ɲ ŋ <m n j/ñ/jn/nj gn>
ɽ l ɬ <r l hl>
θ ð ɕ ʑ ç <th dh s z h>
kθ tɕ dʑ <kt ts dz>
V: Vɪ <V: or VV, Vi>
i,ɪ and u can be extra short when ending a syllable = <V' >

/pambɑ: baɽitʌŋ daɪmun ɲadicuka kʰʌliɬ kθulu ðiɕanɕi θaçuʑi dʑatɕĭ/
<pambåå baritogn daimun jadicuga/ñadicuga/jnadicuga/njadicuga kolihl ktulu dhisansi thahuzi dzatsi' >

[Micropterus]

BUT YOU DON'T HAVE /s/ WTF

Is just the fact that I don't have /s/ in general or is it because I have another phoneme that generally comes with s?

[Herr Dunkel]

...ðiɕansi... (BUT YOU DON'T HAVE /s/ WTF)

[Micropterus]

...ðiɕansi... (BUT YOU DON'T HAVE /s/ WTF)

Oh, a slip of mine, sorry.

[Herr Dunkel]

Yeah, I know the feel.

[sangi39]

Nort’s first conlang:

/p b t d k g/ <p b t d k g>
/f v θ ð s z ʃ ʒ x h/ <f v th dh s z š ž ch h>
/m n r j w/ <m n r j w>
/l ɫ ɬ ɮ/ <l ł ś ź>
/a æ ɛ e ø i o ʊ u/ <a ä e ei ö i o ou u>

nozʊdvɛn vrɛjas vaxra tol ɛzat. lodvɛn i ðulvɛn xelat, tolaj vinasɛlɛt. ɬifɛθɛʃ moʃan onan, vaxɛθɛʃ vlaxat.
Nozoudven vrejas vachra tol ezat. Lodven i dhulven chelat, tolaj vinaselet. Śifetheš mošan onan, vachetheš vlachat.





Chipotle:

Plosives: /p t k/ <p t k>
Nasals: /m n/ <m n>
Fricatives: /ɸ s x ɣ/ <f s h g>
Affricates: /ts ps ks/ <ts ps ks>
Vowels: /a æ ø ə i ɤ u ʊ j w/ <a ä ö e i ë u o y~j* w~v*> long vowels are marked by an acute accent (or an acute umlaut in the case of ä, ë, and ö)

*v and j syllable-initially, w and y elsewhere

/pa.pan tæ.tæm kø.køs mə.nə ɸi.si.xɤ.ɣu tsʊ:ʊ.psaju ksəwa.wu/
Papan tätäm kökös mene fisihëgu tsóopsayu ksewavu





Nacho:

Vowels: /a ɑ ʌ i ɪ u/ <a à o i e u>
Plosives: /p b t d c k kʰ/ <p b t d c g k>
Nasal: /m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ń ņ>
R&L: /ɽ l ɬ/ <r l ł>
Fricatives: /θ ð ɕ ʑ ç/ <s z ś ź h>
Diphones: /kθ tɕ dʑ/ <x ć dź~j>
Diphtongs: /V: Vɪ/ <V+acute* Vi> *ɑ: = â
ì, è and ù for extra-short /i ɪ u/

/pambɑ: baɽitʌŋ daɪmun ɲadicuka kʰʌliɬ kθulu ðiɕanɕi θaçuʑi dʑatɕĭ/
Pambâ baritoņ daimun ńadicuga kolił xulu ziśanśi sahuźi dźaćì
Pambâ baritoņ daimun ńadicuga kolił xulu ziśanśi sahuźi jaćì