Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
KathAveara wrote:(Assuming I've grasped how this thread works...)
Vaqnad
/p b t d k g kʷ ʔ/
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/
/ɸ β þ ð s ç x ɣ xʷ/
/ɹ j ɰ w h/
/m n ŋ/
The approximants and nasals syllabify when not adjacent to a vowel, and syllabic sonorants are treated as vowels in this rule. Syllabification precedes right to left.
There is only one phonemic vowel in the language, with the default value of [a]. All others are either allophones of this vowel (which depend on neighbouring consonants), or syllabic /j ɰ w h/.
The /a/ becomes [ɒ] next to a bilabial, [ɛ] next to a palatal, [ʌ] next to a velar, and [ɔ] next to a labio-velar. Preceding consonants are considered before succeeding consonants when determining the vowel's quality. Syllabic /j ɰ w h/ are realised as /i ɯ u ə/. /a/ + approximant does not produce a diphthong, nor are vowel clusters permitted. Post-vocalic but not inter-vocalic /h/ is realised as lengthening the vowel.
Syllables are (C)V(C) where syllabic sonorants count as V.
no wait, you're doing a silly thing with your vowels. it is normal in this situation to mark [j ɰ w h] as the non-syllabic versions of /i ɯ u ə/ rather than vice-versa (or indeed to point out that they're neutralized/there's no phonemic contrast and that my analysis of your language is as valid as your own).
The vowels [i ɯ u ə] do contrast with /a/ but not with [j ɰ w h]. Due to the way the language handles sonorants not adjacent to an /a/, it is far more convenient to treat those vowels as syllabic approximants rather than treating the approximants as non-syllabic vowels. Plus, the writing system I have in mind does not mark /a/, but does mark [i ɯ u ə], which would be problematic for me if those were treated as the phonemes. Oh, and this is intended to be somewhat more alien than my usual conlangs.
Esmelthien and Nortaneous: Thanks! I will have think hard about whether to mark those /jV/ things as vowels with a diacritic or not. There are some benefits with that way.
Oh, and I had made a mistake in the phonetic transcription. /ɡœjœt͡ʃe̞i̠jjoɡ/ is supposed to be [ɡœ.jœ.ˈt͡ɕje̞.ji̠jː.joɡ]. And I forgot to say that /ʃ ʃʲ/ only appear in loanwords, but they also need to be romanized somehow.
ZMoringese
/m n ɲ ŋ/
<m n ñ ṉ>
/p t c k q/
<p t c k ḵ>
/px tx cç kx qh/
<ph th ch kh ḵh>
/b d ɟ g/
<b d ċ g>
/ts tɬ tɕ/
<z tl q>
/dz dʑ/
<ż j>
/f s ɬ ɕ x h/
<f s l x h ʿ>
/v z ʑ ɣ/
<v ṡ ẋ ḣ>
/w r l j/
<w r l̇ y>
/ā ā: á á: à à: ī ī: í í: ì ì: ū ū: ú ú: ù ù:/
<a aa á ae à ao i ii í ee ì io u uu ú ue ù oo>
KathAveara wrote:I've put a sample text into the post.
The vowels [i ɯ u ə] do contrast with /a/ but not with [j ɰ w h]. Due to the way the language handles sonorants not adjacent to an /a/, it is far more convenient to treat those vowels as syllabic approximants rather than treating the approximants as non-syllabic vowels. Plus, the writing system I have in mind does not mark /a/, but does mark [i ɯ u ə], which would be problematic for me if those were treated as the phonemes. Oh, and this is intended to be somewhat more alien than my usual conlangs.
Tell that to Devanagari...
I fail to see how it is different to having a vowel system of /i M u @ a/, with consonantal realisations of each. You're trying to go for a language with one phonemic vowel, I can see that, but saying that it has only one phonemic vowel because the other vowels are "actually consonants" somehow is cheating. (Tbh it's not much worse that the analysis i've seen of marshallese and ubykh, which also seem to take the idea of no front-back contrast and mould the phonemic analysis of the language to fit that conceit)
Ok i had a look at the text - aside from one place where you wrote /i/ instead of /j/, i can kinda see how it's almost all a. As far as the others, i'd still analyse them as vowels, just rarer. Like, you seem too have a suffix like hNa, which I would want to analyse as @Na instead - a@ is then always a: phonetically. In this suffix it doesn't even get the chance to be [h]. When i have more time i'll try and have a look - right now i really gotta go to bed!!
Sequences of ŋa(S) where S is a sonorant are simply markers to disambiguate. For example, βakʷntaŋam is βakʷnta + ŋam and saçŋam is saç + ŋam. Since saç means 'he/she/it', the ŋam relates it back to βakʷnta rather than anything else. They are also applied to pairs of verbs, typically an active-passive pair, to show that they refer to the same action.
The h in ah sequences lengthens the vowel because of a sound change that alters a sequence of a vowel and an semi-vowel into a sequence of two vowels. So, post- but not inter-vocalic h is first shifted to ə, then ə assimilates to the vowel, which contracts into a long vowel. Etymologically, the syllabic consonants were originally non-syllabic, but various sound changes would have eliminated the vowels adjacent to some of them, forcing them to syllabify. Which is why I analyse them as syllabic consonants, rather than analysing the sonorants as non-syllabic vowels.
And that i is meant to be a j. Thanks for spotting it.
/p b t d k g kʷ ʔ/ <p b t d k g q '>
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/ <ph th kh>
/ɸ β θ ð s ç x ɣ xʷ/ <f v ç dh s c x gh qh>
/ɹ j ɰ w h/ <r i~j y u~w h~e>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/a/ <a>
/p b t d k g kʷ ʔ/ <p b t d k g q '>
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/ <p' t' k'>
/ɸ β θ ð s ç x ɣ xʷ/ <f v c z s x kh gh qh>
/ɹ j ɰ w h/ <r j~i y~ï w~u h~e> The vocalic representations are used only when these sounds do not appear adjacent to <a>, otherwise they are written using the consonantal letters, even if the phonetic realisation is a long vowel.
/m n ŋ/ <m n ñ>
Syllabic nasals and /ɹ/ are indicated by means of a preceding <o>
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
/i ɨ u e̞ ə o̞ æ ä/
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/
/p t c k q ʔ/
/ɸ θ s ʃ x χ ħ h/
/ʋ ɹ j w/
/ʙ r ʀ/
/ⱱ/
/ɬ ɭ ʟ ɺ/
/ɓ ɗ/
/pʼ tʼ ʈʼ cʼ kʼ qʼ/
/ʘ ǀ ǃ ǂ ǁ/
/ᵑʘ ᵑǀ ᵑǃ ᵑǂ ᵑǁ/
/ʘˀ ǀˀ ǃˀ ǂˀ ǁˀ/
/ʘq ǀq ǃq ǂq ǁq/
/ʘqʼ ǀqʼ ǃqʼ ǂqʼ ǁqʼ/
For extra challenge, use digraphs as minimally as possible.
I don't have any example sentences yet, but know that any syllable structure is permitted (partly due to the ability to insert a schwa anywhere in a word, usually between consonant clusters, to make it easier to pronounce) and that clicks are used as case markers.
/i ɨ u e̞ ə o̞ æ ä/ <i ï u e ë o ä a>
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/ <m n ň ņ ṅ>
/p t c k q ʔ/ <p t č k q '>
/ɸ θ s ʃ x χ ħ h/ <f c s š x y ħ h>
/ʋ ɹ j w/ <v z j w>
/ʙ r ʀ/ <b d g>
/ⱱ/ <ṿ>
/ɬ ɭ ʟ ɺ/ <ś l ł r>
/ɓ ɗ/ <ḅ ḍ>
/pʼ tʼ ʈʼ cʼ kʼ qʼ/ <p' t' č' k' q'>
/ʘ ǀ ǃ ǂ ǁ/ <p! t! k! č! l!>
/ᵑʘ ᵑǀ ᵑǃ ᵑǂ ᵑǁ/ <m! n! ņ! ň! nl!>
/ʘˀ ǀˀ ǃˀ ǂˀ ǁˀ/ <p'! t'! k'! č'! l'!>
/ʘq ǀq ǃq ǂq ǁq/ <ṗ! ṭ! ḳ! ċ! ḷ!>
/ʘqʼ ǀqʼ ǃqʼ ǂqʼ ǁqʼ/ <ṗ'! ṭ'! ḳ'! ċ'! ḷ'!>
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
I violated my own rule and decided to create a digraphy latinization. I'm not sure how much i like it, but at least it's pretty easy to type.
/i ɨ u e ə o æ a/
<i ï u e y o a ä>
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/
<m n ñ/nc ŋ/nk nq>
/p t c k q ʔ/
<p t c k q '>
/ɸ θ s ʃ x χ ħ h/
<f ð/d s š g x ħ h>
/ʋ ɹ j w/
<v z j w>
/ʙ r ʀ/
<b r rx>
/ⱱ/
<vb>
/ɬ ɭ ʟ ɺ/
<ł l lk ŀ>
/ɓ ɗ/
<ḃ ḋ>
/pʼ tʼ ʈʼ cʼ kʼ qʼ/
<p. t. l. c. k. q.>
/ʘ ǀ ǃ ǂ ǁ/
<¿ ? ! ¡ |>
/ᵑʘ ᵑǀ ᵑǃ ᵑǂ ᵑǁ/
<n¿ n? n! n¡ n|>
/ʘˀ ǀˀ ǃˀ ǂˀ ǁˀ/
<¿' ?' !' ¡' |'>
/ʘq ǀq ǃq ǂq ǁq/
<¿˙ ?˙ !˙ ¡˙ |˙>
/ʘqʼ ǀqʼ ǃqʼ ǂqʼ ǁqʼ/
<¿. ?. !. ¡. |.>
Alphabet:
I i Ï ï U u E e O o A a Ä ä Y y M m N n (Ñ ñ/Nc nc) (Ŋ ŋ/Nk nk) Nq nq P p T t C c K k Q q F f (Ð ð/D d) S s Š š G g X x Ħ ħ V v Z z B b R r Rx rx Vb vb Ł ł L l Lk lk Ŀ ŀ H h J j W w Ḃ ḃ Ḋ ḋ P. p. T. t. L. l. C. c. K. k. Q. q. ¿ ? ! ¡ | n¿ n? n! n¡ n| ¿' ?' !' ¡' |' ¿˙ ?˙ !˙ ¡˙ |˙ ¿. ?. !. ¡. |. '
This is for (what is now spelled) Ŀmau!unrelḃ, formerly known as 'relib', by the way.
Lmaur!unrelbr
/i ɨ u e̞ ə o̞ æ ä/ <i eu u e eo o ae a>
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/ <m n ñ/ny ng nh>
/p t c k q ʔ/ <p t c k q ʔ>
/ɸ θ s ʃ x χ ħ h/ <f th s sh x xh hh h>
/ʋ ɹ j w/ <v r y w>
/ʙ r ʀ/ <br dr gr>
/ⱱ/ <vr>
/ɬ ɭ ʟ ɺ/ <lh lr lg l>
/ɓ ɗ/ <b d>
/pʼ tʼ ʈʼ cʼ kʼ qʼ/ <p' t' r' c' k' q'>
/ʘ ǀ ǃ ǂ ǁ/ <p! t! r! c! l!>
/ᵑʘ ᵑǀ ᵑǃ ᵑǂ ᵑǁ/ <m! n! nr! ny! nl!>
/ʘˀ ǀˀ ǃˀ ǂˀ ǁˀ/ <p!' t!' r!' c!' l!'>
/ʘq ǀq ǃq ǂq ǁq/ <p!q t!q r!q c!q l!q>
/ʘqʼ ǀqʼ ǃqʼ ǂqʼ ǁqʼ/ <p!q' t!q' r!q' c!q' l!q'>
Lmauqunrelbg
/i ɨ u e̞ ə o̞ æ ä/ <iy i u ey e o ay a> / <i ig u e eg o a ag>
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/ <m n ng ng ngh>
/p t c k q ʔ/ <p t j k kg '>
/ɸ θ s ʃ x χ ħ h/ <f z s sg kh kgh hg h>
/ʋ ɹ j w/ <v r y w>
/ʙ r ʀ/ <bg dg rg>
/ⱱ/ <vg>
/ɬ ɭ ʟ ɺ/ <lh ll lg l>
/ɓ ɗ/ <bh dh>
/pʼ tʼ ʈʼ cʼ kʼ qʼ/ <p' t' d' j' k' kh'>
/ʘ ǀ ǃ ǂ ǁ/ <b c q d x>
/ᵑʘ ᵑǀ ᵑǃ ᵑǂ ᵑǁ/ <mb nc nq nd nx>
/ʘˀ ǀˀ ǃˀ ǂˀ ǁˀ/ <b' c' q' d' x'>
/ʘq ǀq ǃq ǂq ǁq/ <bg cg qg dg xg>
/ʘqʼ ǀqʼ ǃqʼ ǂqʼ ǁqʼ/ <bg' cg' qg' dg' xg'>
/p b t d k g kʷ ʔ/ <p b t d k g ku q>
/pʰ tʰ kʰ/ <ph th kh>
/ɸ β þ ð s ç x ɣ xʷ/ <f v sz z s j ch gh hu>
/ɹ j ɰ w h/ <r y w u '>
/m n ŋ/ <m nh n>
/a/ <a/o/e>
I think this is going to be the orthography (and hopefully the phonology) i'm going to settle on, largely because i really like how the language's name looks.
Ŀmau!unrelḃ:
/i ɨ u e ə o æ a/ <i ï u e y o a ä>
/m n ɲ ŋ ɴ/ <m n ñ ŋ/ng ṅ>
/p t c k q ʔ/ <p t c k q '>
/ɸ θ s ʃ x χ ħ h/ <f d s ṡ x ẋ ħ h>
/ʋ ɹ j w/ <v z j w>
/ʙ r ʀ/ <b r ṙ>
/ⱱ/ <ṽ>
/ɬ ɭ ʟ ɺ/ <ł l ⱡ/lg ŀ>
/ɓ ɗ/ <ḃ ḋ>
/pʼ tʼ ʈʼ cʼ kʼ qʼ/ <p. t. l. c. k. q.>
/ʘ ǀ ǃ ǂ ǁ/ <¿ ? ! ¡ |>
/ᵑʘ ᵑǀ ᵑǃ ᵑǂ ᵑǁ/ <n¿ n? n! n¡ n|>
/ʘˀ ǀˀ ǃˀ ǂˀ ǁˀ/ <¿' ?' !' ¡' |'>
/ʘq ǀq ǃq ǂq ǁq/ <¿˙ ?˙ !˙ ¡˙ |˙>
/ʘqʼ ǀqʼ ǃqʼ ǂqʼ ǁqʼ/ <¿. ?. !. ¡. |.>
/p b t d tʃ dʒ c ɟ k g/ <p b t d ç c k g k g>
/f v s z ʃ ʒ x ɣ h/ <f v s z sh zh x gh h>
/m n l r j/ <m n l r j>
/æ a e ø o i y ɯ u/ <e a é ö o i ü y u>
bytyn insanlar hejsijjæt væ haglar baxɯmɯndan dænk bærabær væ ærkin azad doɣularlar. Us ægl væ ujat vidʒdan jijæsidirlər væ bir birlærinæ garʃɯ gardaʃlɯg ruhu ilæ davranmalɯdɯrlar.
Bütün insanlar héjsijjet ve haglar baxymyndan denk beraber ve erkin azad doghularlar. Us egl ve ujat vicdan jijesidirlar ve bir birlerine garshy gardashlyg ruhu ile davranmalydyrlar.