Vietnamese Spelling Reform (Tiengng Vviet)

[cunningham]

Định kỳ Fasolla sẽ bổ sung, thay đổi, cải tiến hoặc cập nhật các tính năng và thông tin trên mà không cần báo trước. Trong bất kỳ trường hợp nào, Fasolla sẽ không chịu trách nhiệm về bất cứ mất mát, thiệt hại, trách nhiệm hoặc phí tổn mang lại do việc sử dụng thông tin từ Website này, cũng như bao gồm không giới hạn bất kỳ lỗi, thiếu sót, gián đoạn hoặc chậm trễ về các thông tin. Việc sử dụng thông tin tại Website này là hoàn toàn tùy thuộc vào rủi ro riêng của người sử dụng. Trong bất kỳ trường hợp nào, Fasolla hoặc các đại diện của mình sẽ không chịu trách nhiệm đối với bất kỳ thiệt hại trực tiếp, gián tiếp, ngẫu nhiên, đặc biệt hoặc tất yếu, thậm chí nếu Fasolla đã được cảnh báo về khả năng của những thiệt hại như vậy.

Ddinh' khi Fasolla saehh booh suung, taai doih, caih tieenn hhoac ccyp nhnh'yt caacc thinh' nang vha toong th'in tren mha kh'oong chan baa'o truyycc. Trong batt khi trhuyyng hhyyp nhaao, Fasolla sehh kh'oong chchiuu trachch nhnhiem
ve' bytt cu' matt maatt, ttiet hhai, traachch nhnhiem hhoac fi' toohn maang llaai do vviec suh jjuung toong th'in thu Website nhai, cungh nh'u baao ghoom kh'oong j'iyy'i hhan batt khi looihh, tie'uu sott, j'iaann ddoaan hhoac chchym trehh vhe caacc toong th'in. Vviec suh jjuung toong th'in ttai Website na'i la' hoaann th'oaann th'ww ttooc vhaao rwh ro rieng cuaah nghuyyi suh jjuung. Trong bytt khi trhuyyng hhyyp nhaao, Fasolla hhoaac caacc ddaai jjien cuaah mhinh' saehh kh'oong chchiuu traachch nh'iem doo'i vyy'i bytt khi ttiet hhai trtruc th'iepp, j'iann th'iepp, ngauhh nh'ien, ddac bbiet hhoaac th'ytt ye'uu, ttym ch'i' ne'u Fasolla daahh dduyyc cahnh' baa'o vhe kh'ah nang cuaah nh'uhhng tiet hhai nh'u vvaai.


a = aa
ă = a
â = y
e = ae
ê = e
i = i
o = o
ô = oo
ơ = yy
u = uu
ư = u

b = b
c = c
d = j
đ = d
g = g
h = h
k = k
l = l
m = m
n = n
p = p
r = r
s = s
t = th'
v = v
x = z
y = jj'

ch = ch'
gh = gh'
kh = kh'
ng = ng
ngh = ngh'
ph = f
th = t
tr = tr
gi = j'
qu = qu
uy/ui = w

Tone 1: (a)
tak ta
=
th'aak th'aa
Just change to the new letters (above). everything else stays the same.


Tone 2: (á)
ták tá
=
th'aakk th'aa'

If ending in a consonant, double the consanant. If ending in a vowel, put (') after the vowel.
also: kói = ko'i. The (') goes after the accented vowel, not the last vowel.


Tone 3: (à)
tàk tà
=
thhaak thha
Put a silent "h" after the consonant. If beginning with a vowel, put a silent h' before the word.


Tone 4: (ả)
tảk tả
=
th'aahk th'aah

Put an h after the vowel. Also ỏi = oih, not oh'i or ohi.


Tone 5: (ã)
tãk tã

=
th'aakh th'aahh

If ends in a consonant, add an h at the end. If ends in a vowel, add hh at the end.


Tone 6: (ạ)
tạk tạ
=
ththaak ththaa

If begins with a consonant, double the consonant. If begins with a vowel put ' before the vowel.

[Drydic]

HHOAAC

Seriously, no. Changing diacritics to +h and +' and doubling consonants (some of which are ALREADY digraphs in your system) is an utterly horrible idea.

edit - more reasons:

Tone 1: (a)
tak ta
=
th'aak th'aa
Just change to the new letters (above). everything else stays the same.

so 5 letters/diacritics becomes 11 letters/apostrophes.

Tone 2: (á)
ták tá
=
th'aakk th'aa'

If ending in a consonant, double the consanant. If ending in a vowel, put (') after the vowel.
also: kói = ko'i. The (') goes after the accented vowel, not the last vowel.

7 letters/diacritics becomes 13 letters/apostrophes.

Tone 3: (à)
tàk tà
=
thhaak thha
Put a silent "h" after the consonant. If beginning with a vowel, put a silent h' before the word.

7 letters/diacritics becomes 10 letters.

Tone 4: (ả)
tảk tả
=
th'aahk th'aah

Put an h after the vowel. Also ỏi = oih, not oh'i or ohi.

7 letters/diacritics becomes 13 letters/apostrophes.

Tone 5: (ã)
tãk tã

=
th'aakh th'aahh

If ends in a consonant, add an h at the end. If ends in a vowel, add hh at the end.

7 letters/diacritics becomes 14 letters/apostrophes.

Tone 6: (ạ)
tạk tạ
=
ththaak ththaa

If begins with a consonant, double the consonant. If begins with a vowel put ' before the vowel.

7 letters/diacritics becomes 13 letters/apostrophes.

See the problem here?

[Jipí]

OK, I'm blindly following the wikircle on Vietnamese here:

Vowels

/i ɨ u/ 〈i y u〉 (I was gonna use 〈ı〉, but that would've become a problem when adding diacritics)
/e əː o/ 〈ee əə oo〉 or 〈e̱ ə̱ o̱〉 or 〈ẹ ə̣ ọ〉 (Yeah, for the sake of simplicity, let's pretend these are all long!)
/ɛ ə ɔ/ 〈e ə o〉
/a aː/ 〈a aa〉 or 〈a a̱〉 or 〈a ạ〉

Instead of doubling letters, you may alternatively want to use underlining – or maybe an underdot, since Vietnamese already has that, albeit for another purpose. Putting these things under vowels does away with those stacked diacritics that are so awkward to look at (from a eurocentric perspective, I mean …). If the distribution between the mid-high and mid-low vowels is complementary, of course just 〈e ə o〉 is enough – unfortunately, it doesn't seem this way.

V + front offglide: 〈Vi〉 (yi, əi, əəi, ai, aai, ui, ooi, oi)
V + back offglide: 〈Vu〉 (iu, eu, yu, əu, au, aau)
V + central offglide: 〈Və〉 (iə, yə, uə)

VV + front offglide: 〈VVi〉 (yəi, uəi)
VV + back offglide: 〈VVu〉 (iəu, yəu)

Tones

mid ("level"): 〈V〉
low falling/breathy ("hanging"): 〈V̀〉
high rising ("sharp"): 〈V́〉
mid dipping-rising ("asking"): 〈V̌〉
high breaking-rising ("tumbling"): 〈V̂〉
low falling-constricted ("heavy"): 〈V̄〉

The tone marker goes on the first vowel if there's doubling. Alternatively, since the wikircle also mentions how Vietnamese got those tones and to avoid using too many diacritics, you could spell:

mid ("level"): 〈V〉
low falling/breathy ("hanging"): 〈V́〉
high rising ("sharp"): 〈Vq〉
mid dipping-rising ("asking"): 〈V́q〉
high breaking-rising ("tumbling"): 〈Vh〉
low falling-constricted ("heavy"): 〈V́h〉

The acute would serve as an arbitrary diacritic to distinguish the "low" register from the "high" one. In order to look less awkward, 〈h〉 and 〈q〉 serve as diacritics to the whole syllable, i.e. they're always placed at the end of the word/syllable (I just hope that h# isn't possible).

Consonants

/p t tʰ ʈʂ~ʈ c~tɕ k/ 〈p t th tr c k〉
/ɓ ɗ/ 〈b d〉
/f s ʂ kʰ~x h/ 〈f s sr x h〉
/v z~j ʐ~ɹ j~z ɣ/ 〈v z r j g〉
/m n ɲ ŋ/ 〈m n ny ng〉
/w l j/ 〈w l y〉

[Pole, the]

There is something by me, however made around a year ago.

Reworking Vietnamese vowels:

/i ɨj uj/ ‹i yi ui›
/ɨəj uəj/ ‹ye ue›
/e əːj oj/ ‹ei əi oi›
/ɛ əj ɔj/ ‹e əe oe›
/aːj/ ‹ai›
/aj/ ‹ae›

/iw ɨw u/ ‹iu yu u›
/iəw ɨəw/ ‹io yo›
/ew əːw o/ ‹eu əu ou›
/ɛw əw ɔ/ ‹eo əo o›
/aːw/ ‹au›
/aw/ ‹ao›

/ɨ/ ‹y›
/iə ɨə uə/ ‹iə/ie yə uə/uo›
/əː/ ‹əy›
/ə/ ‹ə›
/aː/ ‹ay›
/a/ ‹a›

I hope it makes sense.

[----]

You're mixing dialects here, GP--There's not actually a dialect of Vietnamese that has that exact distribution of phonemes. Only southern-ish dialects of Vietnamese have retroflex consonants but /z/ appearing anywhere is as far as I know entirely a North (Hanoi) Vietnamese quality, and the tones also vary quite heavily across Vietnam. The vowels are different too, but not enough for it to be a huge deal.

[Drydic]

You're mixing dialects here, GP--There's not actually a dialect of Vietnamese that has that exact distribution of phonemes. Only southern-ish dialects of Vietnamese have retroflex consonants but /z/ appearing anywhere is as far as I know entirely a North (Hanoi) Vietnamese quality, and the tones also vary quite heavily across Vietnam. The vowels are different too, but not enough for it to be a huge deal.

OK, I'm blindly following the wikircle on Vietnamese here:

[Jipí]

Thanks Drydic Oh, and "wikircle" of course stands for Wikipedia article (coined by Cev on IRC), but I thought it would be transparent enough. However, I see there's also a section on language variation in that article, which goes into some of the issues of dialects wildly diverging. Anyway, my intention in posting the above was to counter the OP with something more asthetic (to me) that was not just a simple substitution, even if it's not perfect because I don't know the details of the language.

[Zontas]

Personally I'd rather use this reform, but Vietnamese deserves its own script like Lao and Thai:


Consonants

/m/- Mm
/n/- Nn
/J/- Ññ
/N/- Gg/ Ŋŋ
/p/- Pp
/b~b_>/- Bb
/t/- Tt
/t_h/- Th/ ϴθ
/d~d_>/- Dd
/c/- Cc
/k/- Kk
/f/- Ff
/v/- Vv
/s/- Ss
/z/- Zz
/s\/- Jj
/x/- Xx
/ɣ/- Ƣƣ/ Qq/ Gg
/h/- Hh
/l/- Ll
/r\~z\/ Rr
/j/ Yy
/w/ Ww

Vowels

/i/ Ii
/1/ Ïï
/u/ Uu
/e/ E̩e̩/ Ēē
/@:/ Ë̩ë̩/ Ë̄ë̄
/o/ O̩o̩/ Ōō
/E/ Ee
/@/ Ëë
/O/ Oo
/ᴀ:/ A̩a̩/ Āā
/ᴀ/ Aa

Tones

1
2̀
3́
4̆
5̂
6̃

I too am blindly following the Vietnamese article on Wikipedia, but it seems legit.

[Chagen]

I personally think Vietmanese looks fine as it is, and indeed, it's one of my favorite-looking languages.

Not sure why diacritics incite apoplexy in people.

[----]

Thanks Drydic Oh, and "wikircle" of course stands for Wikipedia article (coined by Cev on IRC), but I thought it would be transparent enough. However, I see there's also a section on language variation in that article, which goes into some of the issues of dialects wildly diverging. Anyway, my intention in posting the above was to counter the OP with something more asthetic (to me) that was not just a simple substitution, even if it's not perfect because I don't know the details of the language.

Oh, no, I get it. I wasn't trying to pick at you, just a bit of information!