Ktarh Scratchpad

Substantial postings about constructed languages and constructed worlds in general. Good place to mention your own or evaluate someone else's. Put quick questions in C&C Quickies instead.
User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

So...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Explaining stuff now.

Genders:
:> Masculine and Feminine
The "masculine" gender mostly includes words with a perceived or actual male gender. The "feminine" likewise, but in reverse. The feminine generally ends in one of the following: { e a ā æ ǣ } while the masculine takes every other final. Some words have lexical gender - they have the form of one gender, but decline and behave as if they were of the other.
:> Mechanoid
The "mechanoid" gender mostly refers to machines that can communicate. Sometimes it may be extended to machines that cannot communicate or process information, but this is rare. Unlike the two above, the mechanoid gender is purely lexical - mechanoid words can end in any sound but behave as if they weren't what their form would imply.
The reason the Ktarh have a mechanoid gender is that they worship a perceived mechanoid goddess (Akāshā, fem. ani.) and her mechanoid servants (Psi ~ Psarh, mech. ani.) and with whom they interact. The machines have a prominent role in their perception of reality (they believe a machine made them and all that is).

Animacies:
:> Sentient and Critter
These two signify beings that are either self-aware (sentient) or are active but without self-awareness (critter). They are grouped into the super-animacy of "Animate".
:> Inanimate and Dead
These two signify either non-living objects or concepts (inanimates) or beings whose lives or activities were permanently terminated (dead). They are grouped into the super-animacy of "Inanimate".
Note: dead biological beings can still be referred to as either sentients or critters for up to half an hour after death, while machines, after termination of activity, must be referred to as dead until repaired.

Non-sentient machines are referred to as critters, even if they work only when some input is given. Machines are inanimate only when they must be actively operated to be considered working.
While the masculine and feminine genders are sensitive to all four animacies, the mechanoid gender is sensitive (i.e. is declined according) only to the super-animacy, while pronouns can be inflected to show the animacy that was underspecified.

Numbers:
:> Singular
The singular usually indicates one instance of something, or a system or complex that functions as an unified concept ( all the stars in the sky, a field of flowers, a nation ).
:> Dual
The dual usually indicates two instances of something, or a system or complex that can be divided into two self-sufficient concepts ( pair of eyes/ears/arms/legs, the moons, twins )
:> Plural
The plural indicates multiple ( >2) instances of something invariably ( the specific stars in the sky, multiple flowers, multiple eyes, triplets etc. )

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The cases and clipping will be explained together.
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Hallow XIII »

Wait. You're telling me that the goddess, which is the reason they have such a gender, doesn't take it? That seems stupid.

Also, um, how many things exactly fit in this gender? xD
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Hallow XIII wrote:Wait. You're telling me that the goddess, which is the reason they have such a gender, doesn't take it? That seems stupid.
Meh, that's life. Probably analogy. It used to be in the mechanoid in the proto-language, though ( ha-kəššo - one who has been created)
Also, um, how many things exactly fit in this gender? xD
Your cellphone, computer (especially if it has virī), but not your TV, car or MP3. Robots (if independent from controller), self-operating automata and the like certainly fit as well. The Psarh (essentially artificial life in the conworld) too. Not too many concepts, but it's an open class.
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Before the next update (no it's not happening right now it's happening probs on the weekend) I'd like to mention that I've been experimenting with fancy writing - Kti previously had only a mostly-alphabetic system that strongly resembles a Beleriadesque Tengwar set, but now I'm developing a syllabary-abugida hybrid and a logograph/ideograph system to go along with the syllabugida.
Will shed light on this after the next update.
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Hallow XIII »

Elector Dark wrote:Before the next update (no it's not happening right now it's happening probs on the weekend) I'd like to mention that I've been experimenting with fancy writing - Kti previously had only a mostly-alphabetic system that strongly resembles a Beleriadesque Tengwar set, but now I'm developing a syllabary-abugida hybrid and a logograph/ideograph system to go along with the syllabugida.
Will shed light on this after the next update.
Well, as long as you didn't derive it from an older cuneiform system I won't sue you for copyright infringement. xP

Nah, I'm joking. I'm expecting great things from you, ED.
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Hallow XIII wrote:Well, as long as you didn't derive it from an older cuneiform system I won't sue you for copyright infringement. xP

Nah, I'm joking. I'm expecting great things from you, ED.
Heh, no need to sue, the official origin by Word of God is "unknown". Will post an update today.
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Cases and clipping, ho!
A recount:

-Cases:
:> Nominative
:> Accusative
:> Reflexive
:> Genitive
:> Dative
:> Vocative
:> Instrumental
:> Locative
:> Intrative
:> Inessive
:> Subessive
:> Ablative
:> Allative
:> Delative
:> Elative
:> Illative
:> Sublative
:> Perlative
:> Prosecutive-Vialis
:> Antessive
:> Abessive
:> Revertive
:> Identical
:> Ornative
:> Adventive
:> Possessive
:> Partitive
:> Anessive

-Classes:
:> Regular
:> "Clipping"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's start with the basic cases:
:> Cases:
- Nominative
- Accusative
- Reflexive
- Dative
- Vocative
- Instrumental
- Locative

These seven make up the core cases used in the Ktarh morphosyntactic alignment. All of these can indicate, in some form or another, the subject, agent and object.

Let's start with the nominative.
The nominative is primarily used to mark the subjects of many intransitive verbs and agents of many transitive verbs. That's its primary use; the secondary use is to mark inalienable possessions and, rarely, company (that is, it can function as a commitative and possessed case).

The accusative marks the objects of transitive verbs, but also sometimes the subjects of intransitive verbs (for emphasis, occasional). It's also used to denote the direction towards something else is facing (when stacked with the dative).

The reflexive marks both the agent and object of transitive verbs when both are the same. It marks the verb for the mediopassive voice.

The dative denotes the recipient and beneficiary of verbs that have a higher transitivity than plain transitive. It also marks the subject in generic modal constructions where the attributes expressed are emotions, feelings or sensory inputs. Stacked on the accusative, it marks the direction towards which something is faced.

The vocative has two uses - to call something or somebody, and as a subject/agent of imperatives.

The instrumental has two uses - to denote an instrument with which the action denoted by the verb is performed, and to denote the company in which the agent or subject performs the action denoted by the verb (instrumental and causative). It can also be extended to mark the instrument as a subject (as in, "the axe-INST fells the tree-ACC", coming from "John-NOM fells the tree-ACC with the axe-INST").

The locative has two uses - to mark the location at which some other entity currently is, and to mark the topic of conversation. While it doesn't actually fulfill the role of object, topics marked with the locative prevent an accusative object from appearing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, the spatial cases (and one temporal case), too!
:> Cases:
- Intrative
- Inessive
- Subessive
- Ablative
- Allative
- Delative
- Elative
- Illative
- Sublative
- Perlative
- Prosecutive-Vialis
- Antessive

The intrative can be used in two ways: when attached to a dual or plural, denotes location between the instances of the marked word, but when several words are marked consecutively, it denotes location between them. The second form requires hyphenation in writing (so that you get <narinadī> (between two children), but <narenēki-hsēkunēki> (between a child and a tailor) ).

The inessive denotes static location inside the modified word. Nothing else.

The subessive denotes static location beneath the modified.

The ablative denotes two things - the first is motion from something, and the second is the object received from something (that's marked in the genitive)

The allative denotes two things - the motion towards and up to the modified word, and motion onto the top or topside of the modified word.

The delative denotes motion from the top of the modified word.

The elative denotes motion from the inside of the modified word.

The illative denotes motion into the modified word.

The sublative denotes motion to beneath the modified word.

The perlative denotes motion through the modified word (into and out of it).

The prosecutive-vialis denotes both the path or way of motion, and method used to acheive a goal (seperate from the instrumental since the instrumental is specific to instruments and tools)

The antessive is the only temporal case of the set, and denotes that the action happens before that which is marked with it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Cases:
:> Genitive
:> Abessive
:> Revertive
:> Identical
:> Ornative
:> Adventive
:> Possessive
:> Partitive
:> Anessive

The cases most common to stack, the genitive, abessive, revertive, identical, ornative, adventive, possessive, partitive and anessive, share a few common properties - most importantly, they a) are the most frequent to stack b) share the first two ablaut grades (some share all three).

The genitive is sometimes used to mark the "possessor" of immaterial things (emotions, opinions etc.) or things such as injuries. It can also be used to mark the material of something else, and the place and/or time of origin or occupation (house-NOM winter-GEN - winter home, home occupied during winters/home built during winter).

The abessive's basic use is to denote the lack of something or a state of contradiction. It can be used only when stacked - when stacked with the core cases, it indicates that the action can't be fulfilled due to the lack of the marked; stacked with the genitive and possessive (only in their possessory function), it indicates that, while marked as a possessor, the marked now denotes former possession; stacked with the dative in its benefactory function, it denotes the malefactive. It can also be stacked with the motive cases to generally denote that the motion was supposed to happen but didn't, or the inability to take the marked path; stacked with the prosecutive-vialis denotes that a path other than the marked one was/is/will be used.

The revertive by itself marks location opposite or across an obstacle to that marked (house-REV stands factory-NOM = the factory stands opposite the house/across the street from the house), but when stacked with the possessive, it marks the same thing as a possessed case would. When with a non-singular or multipartite subject (and often with a verb of motion), it can be stacked with the prosecutive-vialis to denote that the subject's parts performed the action from opposite sides of the path (truck-DU-NOM drove road-VIA-REV = the two tracks drove on the opposite sides of the road); it can be extended with any case of motion to denote that the parts went seperate ways.

The identical case can only be used stacked - it is used to denote that the marked have one or more of their attributes very simmilar or identical. It can also be used as a translative case when used with a verb of motion and when used on both the subject and object (or on word marked with both the nominative and identical but doesn't denote a core argument).

The ornative case can only be used when stacked. It's limited in scope, but primarily denotes equipment or supplies (or even manpower) carried along for the performance of action, but there where the commitative cannot be used. It can also be used to denote decoration. To denote the equipment, it must be stacked onto the instrumental, but it also requires that the subject be marked with (in order) the nominative, possessive and ornative. To denote decoration, it must be stacked onto the nominative, but the decorated must also acquire a possessive marking.

The adventive must be stacked with some other case - it denotes that what was marked for the role wasn't what had been planned beforehand (different route than expected, different subject than previously planned).

The possessive basically denotes possessorship where the genitive doesn't (for tangible/material things, then for land (and territorial surface area and volume in general) and intangible goods (such as knowledge) ). Its additional uses are described above with the cases with which it stacks.

The partitive denotes several things - interchangeably with the genitive, it denotes material, but also denotes a segment seperate from the whole (such as a cog from a machine).

The anessive functions a lot like the base use of the abessive, except that, while the abessive marks that the lack of something obstructs performance of action, the anessive denotes that the presence of something obstructs, instead. It can only be used with the core cases and the prosecutive-vialis (where it denotes the inability to take the path).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeah, that's about all of them. If anything needs explanation, ask me.
Last edited by Herr Dunkel on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Coming next: ablaut and clipping!
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Hallow XIII »

You seem to have confused intrative and inessive.

Also, Jesus H. Christ that's a lot of cases. o.O
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Hallow XIII wrote:You seem to have confused intrative and inessive.

Also, Jesus H. Christ that's a lot of cases. o.O
Yeah thanks I kinda lost track of them half-way in xD
Thanks for the heads-up.

And, yeah, 28 does seem a bit more than average.
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Clipping, ho!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clipping is a noun-specific ablaut that applies while applying cases. Each case has its specific ablaut, but there are four grades: special, null, half and full. Special = no change, Null = vowel deletion, Half = short vowel, Full = long vowel.

The grades for the cases:

Case - SG/DU/PL

Nominative - SPECIAL/HALF/FULL
Dative - FULL/NULL/HALF
Accusative - FULL/FULL/HALF
Instrumental - FULL/HALF/HALF
Locative - HALF/NULL/HALF
Vocative - SPECIAL/SPECIAL/FULL
Reflexive - NULL/HALF/NULL
Intrative - FULL/HALF/HALF
Inessive - FULL/HALF/FULL
Subessive - NULL/FULL/NULL
Ablative - HALF/NULL/HALF
Delative - HALF/HALF/HALF
Elative - FULL/FULL/FULL
Allative - NULL/FULL/HALF
Illative - NULL/NULL/NULL
Sublative - HALF/HALF/HALF
Perlative - FULL/FULL/NULL
Prosecutive-Vialis - HALF/HALF/HALF
Antessive - FULL/HALF/FULL
Reversive - HALF/NULL/NULL
Abessive - HALF/FULL/NULL
Genitive - HALF/FULL/FULL
Identical - HALF/FULL/FULL
Ornative - HALF/FULL/FULL
Adventive - HALF/FULL/FULL
Possessive - HALF/FULL/FULL
Partitive - HALF/FULL/FULL
Avertive - HALF/FULL/HALF

Whenever the deletion of a vowel due to the null grade causes phonotactical troubles, the vowel is replaced with a vowel of the same frontness but short length; the vowels that can replace are {a i u}.
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Hallow XIII »

Elector Dark wrote:And, yeah, 28 does seem a bit more than average.
Not that it's bad. I like the weird. My conlang, for instance, is a syntactically ergative OSV topic-prominent polysynthetic language with rounding harmony and no open vowels.

So what is the function of this clipping? And also how does it work, exactly?
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

The clipping is named due to the null grade - it's an ablaut that applies to the last vowel in the noun after the various processes have applied.

For example, <nare> (child) is in NOM.SG in the special grade (no change), but <narīde> (nare-īde) in NOM.DU and <nārem> (nare-em) in NOM.PL, <narekē> in GEN.SG, <narēnakē> in GEN.DU and <marnadī> (nare-nadī, with "m ~ n") in ILL.SG.

The beforementioned processes can sometimes delete the last vowel (but they don't in the illative just fyi)

Edit: Words can be either clipping-class (as in, the clipping applies on them) or normal (it doesn't apply); clipping-class words have their ablaut optional - it's not obligatory but it is common
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Ach, didn't do anything on writing this weekend, since I can't find a good way to represent the glyphs digitally. I have a small notebook of about fourty-ish terms so far that are glyphed though
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Declension!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, masculine sentient declension anyway.

Case = SG/DU/PL

Nominative = -0 / -īde / -em
Dative = -(a)nes / -(e)mēz / -(e)mēz
Accusative = -um / -namen / -umen
Instrumental = -'na / -'rim / -'nem
Locative = -'man / -'nam / -iri
Vocative = -(n)e / -(d)ōka / -(m)er
Reflexive = -(u)r' / -(n)ēm / -(o)ra
Intrative = -ānnæ / -næmǣk / -nǣden [DU, PL: nasals switch in last syllable]
Inessive = -nēki / -nadī / -ahaz [DU, PL: last vowel raised, first glottal stop in word moved forward to the coda of the next syllable, replacing it if necessary]
Subessive = -nēshæ / -(m)er / -(r)is [SG: every vowel in word raised; DU, PL: last vowel in word raised]
Ablative = -nuk / -nuzim / -ūkazh [all: glottal stops removed]
Delative = -nama / -særū / -'am'a [DU, PL: last vowel lengthened: a > ā, ā > āa etc.]
Elative = -ēm / -ēsen / -nīk [SG, DU: first vowel lengthened: a > ā, ā > āa etc.]
Allative = -nǣk / -æm / -nām [PL: last vowel lowered]
Illative = -nēme / -sumē / -kashē [all: all nasals switch]
Sublative = -ēm' / -0 / -'ē [DU: all nasals switch]
Perlative = -ra'zhe / -nōta / -ōta [DU, PL: last vowel lowered and fronted: u > a, æ > e]
Prosecutive-Vialis = -(ī)ra' / -(ī)ra' / -(ī)ra' [PL: first vowel lengthened: a > ā, ā > āa etc.]]
Antessive = nǣke- / nāme- / sūz(u)- [SG, DU: first glottal stop in word moved backwards to the coda of the previous syllable, replacing it if necessary]
Reversive = -nakē / -nūs / -nūs [all: first and last vowel lengthened: a > ā, ā > āa etc.]
Abessive = -nōm / -nēna / -s'mnār [SG: all nasals switch; DU: last vowel lowered; PL: coronal obstruents switch voicing, phonotactics violations simplified to most sonorous element]
Genitive = -(ā)ke / -nakē / -(e)ke
Identical = -ēkke / -æt / -ekkē [SG, DU: first vowel raised]
Ornative = -'rim / -'rīz / -'rim [DU, PL: glottal stop inserted into the coda of the first syllable, replacing it if necessary]
Adventive = o-...-zāh / o-...-zāh / -eiæn [SG: coronal obstruents switch voicing, phonotactics violations simplified to most sonorous element]
Possessive = -nūka / -īs / -shām [all: last vowel shortened: ā > a, a = a etc.]
Partitive = -sā / -neksa / -hsēen [all: last vowel lengthened: a > ā, ā > āa etc.]
Avertive = -eten / -eden / -eten

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here, the instructions inside square brackets indicate morphophonological processes that apply in the given form, and the normally bracketed forms are only added if what the affix is added on to ends (or begins in the case of prefixes) in the same type of sound as the one in the affix behind said bracketed form (so that you get "dokanake" in GEN. SG. but "dukanēkke" in IDN. SG.).

In most cases, if the vowel of the suffix is long, it will replace the ending vowel of the noun, though both the replaced and non-replaced forms are legal. The prefixes never replace.
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Some more declensions
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This time it's masculine critter and inanimate.

Case = SG/DU/PL

Nominative = -0 / -īre / -em
Dative = -(e)miz / -nu'ǣn / -(i)mez
Accusative = -um / -umen / -umen
Instrumental = -'me / -'men / -'ēm
Locative = -'nim / -(e)nir / -īdi
Vocative = -0 / -nūs / -(h)a
Reflexive = -(ū)ra / -(u)zā / -(u)har [PL: nasals switch in last syllable]
Intrative = -shi / -shīna / -suki
Inessive = -nēku / -narū / -reaz [DU, PL: last vowel raised]
Subessive = -haka / -'aden / -ǣs [all: u > i, a > æ in the last syllable regardless of length]
Ablative = -shūh / -mūh / -naksa
Delative = -nik / -ēr / -nēmhi [DU, PL: last vowel lengthened: a > ā, ā > āa etc.]
Elative = -ēm / -ēsen / -nīk [DU, PL: first vowel lengthened: a > ā, ā > āa etc.]
Allative = -ner / -nam / -nām [all: last vowel lowered]
Illative = -nēme / -sūme / -kāze [all: all nasals switch]
Sublative = -ēm' / -0 / -'ē [DU: all nasals switch]
Perlative = -rahni / -nokta / -huta [all: last vowel lengthened: a > ā, ā > āa etc.]
Prosecutive-Vialis = -īki / -deki / -īrik
Antessive = -(e)mēr / nā- / -hūh
Reversive = -nām / -man / -mān
Abessive = -nōm / -nēna / -s'mnār [SG: all nasals switch; DU: last vowel lowered; PL: coronal obstruents switch voicing, phonotactics violations simplified to most sonorous element]
Genitive = -(e)ha / -(a)h / -ēke
Identical = -ēkke / -æt / -ekkē [SG, DU: first vowel raised]
Ornative = -kris / -rzī / -(ō)r [DU, PL: glottal stop inserted into the coda of the first syllable, replacing it if necessary]
Adventive = o-...-ziki / o-...-zāh / o-...-īhen [SG: coronal obstruents switch voicing, phonotactics violations simplified to most sonorous element]
Possessive = -nūka / -īs / -shām [all: last vowel shortened: ā > a, a = a etc.]
Partitive = -sā / -neksa / -hsēen [all: last vowel lengthened: a > ā, ā > āa etc.]
Avertive = -eksin / -hār / -zush

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Same applies as before, and you'll probably note a few correspondences between the critter/inanimate and sentient declensions - they're supposed to come from the same declension, save for one or two features.
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
WeepingElf
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1630
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:00 pm
Location: Braunschweig, Germany
Contact:

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by WeepingElf »

I'm sorry, but that's just kitchen-sinky.

While there are indeed languages with dozens of cases in some valleys of the Caucasus, these do that in a regular and systematic way. Here is an example of how that works. In this example, 7*4*2=56 case forms are built with only 7+3+1=11 suffixes, with few irregularities. I see no such regularity in your declensions; they are probably too complex to master for native speakers!
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

While I admit I might have overdid it, it was more like taking Hungarian to its logical extreme.
Edit: was it not Greenlandic that has hundreds of suffixes? That can also make sense here, as most of these are on nouns rather than on verbs
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
gach
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 472
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:03 am
Location: displaced from Helsinki

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by gach »

WeepingElf wrote:I see no such regularity in your declensions; they are probably too complex to master for native speakers!
I wouldn't call it exactly unlearnable. But it's a good bet that in a natural complex system you will see either fully transparent or at least not too opaque historical regularity between the forms, as is the case with the Dagestanian style local cases.

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Hallow XIII »

gach wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:I see no such regularity in your declensions; they are probably too complex to master for native speakers!
I wouldn't call it exactly unlearnable. But it's a good bet that in a natural complex system you will see either fully transparent or at least not too opaque historical regularity between the forms, as is the case with the Dagestanian style local cases.
Let's wait 'til Darkgamma shows up with his reasoning. I'm sure there is a perfectly sound explanation.
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

And so he shows up.
It's actually so that it was almost perfectly regular several hundred years prior, but most of the alternations and the befunging came to be when /*p *b *g/ were lost. So, Inessive SG. /-nik/ and /-nama/ came from /*-nɛxp/ and /*-nɛˤxba/, where the pharyngealisation on the vowel is a regular development of a /xC[+voice]/ cluster, and the forms came from even earlier /**-nɛxp/ and /**-nɛxp-bɑ/ and such.
I haven't really worked it all out, but the vowel alternations stem from semitic-like ablauts in proto-Ktarh, and the consonant alternations from sound-changed metatheses.
Some cases are simply suppletive, tho.

So, there was lots of regularity, but it wasn't a perfectly regular system. Sound changes took care of what little regularity remained (although the mechanoid forms are almost completely regular since they're newer innovations).
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Hallow XIII
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 846
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:40 pm
Location: Under Heaven

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Hallow XIII »

See? Told you there was an explanation. Anywayses, Mijnheer Doenkel, how about some verbs now? :3

Besides, if this throws you off, you'd better be ready for when I unleash my freaklang with completely fusional polypersonal marking upon this forum~
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
R.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Read all about my excellent conlangs
Basic Conlanging Advice

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

Oh, so you want verbs now?
I mean I'm not yet done with nouns, but I'll do stuff on verbs aye :3
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

We're a bit early on the verbs, as they weren't planned to air just yet, but sure here are the basics!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Verbs in Kti conjugate for the following categories:
  • Object gender and animacy
  • Subject person
  • Subject number
  • "Tense"
  • Voice
  • Mood
  • Aspect
You'll note that tense is put inside quotations, and you'll see why shortly.

:> Object agreement
Verbs in Kti agree to object gender and animacy. There is a very simple system of prefixes that does that:
Sentient (all genders): 0-
Critter (masculine and feminine): æm-
Critter (mechanoid): 0-
Dead (masculine): sem-
Dead (feminine): se-
Dead (mechanoid): 0-
Inanimate (masculine and feminine): 0-
Inanimate (mechanoid): æm-

Zero = null prefix.

:> Tense, person and number
Tense, person and number are fused in Ktarh verbs, and the language distinguishes:
  • Five person forms
Two first person forms (inclusive & exclusive - clusitivity)
One second person form
Two third person forms (proximate & obviative - salience)
  • Three number forms
Singular (SG), Dual (DU) and Plural (PL)
Sometimes, the singular and dual are conflated into a Nonplural (NPL
  • Nine "tense" forms
Three simple tenses (present (PRS), past simple (PST) and past aorist (AOR))
Six complex tenses (pluperfect (PPF), future (FUT), inceptive (ICP), past periodic (PSTP), present periodic (PRSP) and future periodic (FUTP))

The complex tenses are usually made up of several words or are compounds and are more akin to analytical constructions, while the simple tenses are more fusional.
The quotation part comes due to the nature of the past aorist, pluperfect and periodic tenses - they have aspectual qualities that are seperate from the other aspects of the language, and therefore for ease of classification are simply called tenses.
More on this in the future.

:> Voice
Kti has four voices: the active (ACT), unmarked, the passive (PAS) and the mediopassive (unglossed on verbs).
The active is the unmarked form, the mediopassive is marked with the reflexive case and the passive is marked with a particle.
More on this in the future, again.

:> Mood
Kti has:
  • Three realis moods
The realis moods are the indicative (IND), generic (GNR) and speculative (SPE).
  • Five irrealis moods
The irrealis moods are the imperative (IMP), the first and second conditionals (CON1 and CON2), the obligative (OBL) and impositive (IPS).
The difference between the two conditionals is that the first assumes the conditions aren't fulfilled or realistic, and the second assumes or asserts that the conditions are already fulfilled.
You guessed it, more on this in the future.

:> Aspect
Kti has two aspects: the perfective (PRF) and imperfective (IPF). These two are mostly lexical although there are some morphological aspects.
Yes, more of that in the future.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's just a preview.
There's more on verbs, such as noun incorporation, but that comes even later :mrgreen:
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

User avatar
Herr Dunkel
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1088
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:21 pm
Location: In this multiverse or another

Re: Ktarh Scratchpad

Post by Herr Dunkel »

:> Tense, person, number

In Kti, these three categories are usually conflated into one suffix, so I'll treat them together.
Ktarh tense is called that out of convenience: the tenses are more often than not tense-aspect combinations. The reason some of these tenses are called tenses is that Kti already has two "true" aspects that verbs can have regardless of tense: Kti doesn't allow more than one feature from each category to be represented (one tense, one voice, one aspect, one mood maximum)

Ktarh verbs conjugate for, at most, five person forms, though the actual number varies between three and five.
The categories are:

:>Two first person forms
:> One second person form
:> Two third person forms

Kti has both a distinction between inclusive and exclusive first person forms, and a distinction between proximate and obviate third person forms.
sano wrote:
To my dearest Darkgamma,
http://www.dazzlejunction.com/greetings/thanks/thank-you-bear.gif
Sincerely,
sano

Post Reply