Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

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Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by Dewrad »

Liedansk [ˈliːdǝ̃s] is a Scandinavian language spoken on Liedan, an island in the North Sea roughly equidistant between Denmark and Britain. As an East Norse language, Liedansk is most closely related to Danish and Swedish. However, it has undergone a great deal of adstratal influence from English, as well as substratal Brythonic influence.

I've got a reasonable idea of what the history of this island is, but am slightly unsure on whether it's currently a dependency of Denmark (like Greenland or the Faroes), or the UK (like the Isle of Man).

Phonology

Liedansk has a vowel inventory consisting of ten monophthongs and four diphthongs. The thirteen monophthongs are as follows:

Image

The four diphthongs can be classified into two sets: centering and closing. All four are falling diphthongs, characterised by an initial element of higher prominence and an off-glide of lower prominence.

Image

The full complement of monophthongs (with the exception of /ǝ/) only occurs in stressed syllables. Post-tonic syllables are restricted to the vowels /ɛ ɔ æ/, while pretonic syllables exhibit only /ɪ ʏ ɛ ɔ æ/. Note that when unstressed, the open-mid vowels tend to be somewhat closer, verging towards [e̞ o̞], and post-tonic /æ/ moves to the centre of the vowel space, being pronounced [ǝ].

The consonant inventory comprises sixteen phonemes, shown in the table below:

Image

A few salient allophonic processes to note:
  • The voiceless palatal stop /c/ is more frequently realised as a palatal affricate [c͡ç].
  • Adjacent to a front vowel, the velar fricative /x/ has a palatal allophone [ç].
  • When in absolute initial position and followed by a non-front vowel, the velar fricative /x/ is pronounced [h].
  • The voiceless alveolar and labiodental fricatives /f s/ have voiced allophones [v z] when intervocalic or medially following /r/ or /l/.
  • The cluster /sc/ is pronounced [ʃ].
  • The alveolar lateral /l/ has a velar allophone [ɫ] in syllable codas.
  • The alveolar nasal /n/ has the allophones [ŋ] before a velar consonant and [ɲ] before a palatal consonant.
  • Between an unstressed vowel and a consonant, nasals disappear, with compensatory nasalisation of the preceding vowel: /ˈliːdǝns/ > [ˈliːdǝ̃s]
Stress in Liedansk is fixed and, to a large degree, predictable. In most words of native stock, stress occurs on the initial syllable of the root (thus disregarding any prefixes). For example, afklaeda ‘to undress’, is derived from klaeda ‘to dress’ and the prefix af-, it is stressed on the initial syllable for klaeda: [æfˈklɛːdǝ]. Words of foreign origin, particularly those from Romance or Latin sources, often violate this principle, however, with final stress being common.

Orthography

Liedansk orthography, while broadly phonemic, does not have a perfect one-to-one match between phoneme and grapheme. In particular, the representation of the fourteen vocalic phonemes with only six letters of the Latin alphabet presents some problems. This is complicated somewhat by the fact that Liedansk has an established literary tradition going back to the eleventh century, and the orthography has developed organically throughout the intervening period, with only a limited number of ad hoc spelling reforms along the way.

Vowel and diphthongs are generally represented in a straightforward fashion, with little ambiguity of pronunciation arising from spelling. However, there is not a strict one-to-one correspondence between phoneme and grapheme. Rather, several phonemes have multiple graphical representations. In the table below, the most common grapheme is given first, with alternatives in decreasing order of frequency.

Image

From the above table, the only ambiguities arising are the infrequent representation of /ɔː/ by â, of /ɪ/ by y and of /iː/ by i. The first occurs only in a handful of words, most common among them being the preposition â ‘at, on’. The latter two cases are rather more difficult, with those words using y to represent /ɪ/ and i to represent /i/ must simply be learnt as exceptions. It is worth noting, however, that such exceptions are rare, and normally confined to a handful of high-frequency words, such as the preposition i /iː/ ‘in’.

The representation of consonants is, by and large similar, although variation between graphemes tends to be rather more predictable:

Image

In several cases above where there are two possible graphemes for one phoneme, they are in fact positional variants of each other. For example, ck occurs instead of kk, while ch is found word-medially and h word-initially. The grapheme v only occurs in loan words, such as universita /ʏnɪversɪˈtæ/ ‘university’.

The representation of the voiceless palatal and velar stops is slightly more complex. Essentially, before i, ie, e and ê, the grapheme k represents /c/, as /k/ does not occur in these positions. Before any other vowel grapheme, the palatal stop is represented by the digraph ki, thus kiaelda ‘well’ unambiguously represents /ˈcɛːldæ/. However, this does creates some ambiguity: does kiatla ‘kettle’ represent /ˈcætlæ/ or /ˈciǝ̯tlæ/? In this case, the former, but the orthography does not have any strategy for disambiguation.

Finally, a note about the representation of /j/ by z: in older Liedansk /j/ was normally represented by ȝ, a grapheme used in Middle Liedansk for /ɣ~j/. When movable type arrived in Liedan, most typesets lacked this special character and substituted it for the graphically similar z, whence the modern convention.

Actually, this is pretty similar to what happened in Scotland as well. I'm still vaguely tempted to keep the yogh anyway.
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by WeepingElf »

Just one question: Why does the self-designation of the language use a vowel that is not in the inventory?
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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by Aili Meilani »

WeepingElf wrote:Just one question: Why does the self-designation of the language use a vowel that is not in the inventory?
Dewrad wrote:Between an unstressed vowel and a consonant, nasals disappear, with compensatory nasalisation of the preceding vowel: /ˈliːdǝns/ > [ˈliːdǝ̃s]

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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by Dewrad »

Aino Meilani wrote:
WeepingElf wrote:Just one question: Why does the self-designation of the language use a vowel that is not in the inventory?
Dewrad wrote:Between an unstressed vowel and a consonant, nasals disappear, with compensatory nasalisation of the preceding vowel: /ˈliːdǝns/ > [ˈliːdǝ̃s]
Damn, actually that should be /ˈliːdæns/ > [ˈliːdǝ̃s], with unstressed /æ/ > [ǝ] and then nasalisation. But yeah, that's why- the self-designation's in brackets, not slashes.
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by WeepingElf »

OK, so I just did not read carefully enough ;)
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Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A

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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by vec »

I find the orthography a bit hard to digest because it's so far from other Scandinavian orthographies. Historically, Scandinavian languages have made use of the acute, breve and ogonek, å æ ø œ þ ð, but never a circumflex. Out of double vowel letters, only aa has been used. I don't know that unligated ae has been used in any of them. W has certainly never been used in any of them to a significant degree. What are you proposing as the influence for this rather atypical orthographic scheme?

The few word examples you show, afklaeda (which has an unvoiced f unlike all the other Scandinavian languages where it is voiced or unpronounced in all cases) and the preposition â (which has gained an intrusive p- from the word "op" in all the mainland Scandinavian languages but not in Icelandic and Faroese) certainly seem more conservative than Swedish and Danish and thus in some respects closer to Icelandic and Faroese.

Prepositional prefixes on verbs are stressed in all Scandinavian languages; only a handful of native Germanic prefixes are not, such as be-, which is not prepositional. How are you explaining this shift? Are the words commonly used without the prefix?
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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by Dewrad »

vec wrote:I find the orthography a bit hard to digest because it's so far from other Scandinavian orthographies. Historically, Scandinavian languages have made use of the acute, breve and ogonek, å æ ø œ þ ð, but never a circumflex. Out of double vowel letters, only aa has been used. I don't know that unligated ae has been used in any of them. W has certainly never been used in any of them to a significant degree. What are you proposing as the influence for this rather atypical orthographic scheme?
For a start, it's a fairly atypical Scandinavian language! Briefly, my concept for this language was originally "what if ON had remained spoken in England?", thus both soundchanges and orthographical habits have been heavily influenced by Middle English (and, to not an insignificant degree, Dutch). By the same token, it misses out on a number of innovations shared by the continental languages. A somewhat lazy analogy: Liedansk is, essentially, to continental Scandinavian what Manx is to the rest of Goidelic.

(As regards the use of w, I will point out that Old Swedish used it interchangably with v- don't let normalised editions of Sturlusson fool you into thinking that premodern forms of Scandinavian had nice regular orthographies!)
The few word examples you show, afklaeda (which has an unvoiced f unlike all the other Scandinavian languages where it is voiced or unpronounced in all cases) and the preposition â (which has gained an intrusive p- from the word "op" in all the mainland Scandinavian languages but not in Icelandic and Faroese) certainly seem more conservative than Swedish and Danish and thus in some respects closer to Icelandic and Faroese.

Prepositional prefixes on verbs are stressed in all Scandinavian languages; only a handful of native Germanic prefixes are not, such as be-, which is not prepositional. How are you explaining this shift? Are the words commonly used without the prefix?
That's interesting: I didn't know that, thank you. Does the root bear secondary stress in this case, or primary?
Some useful Dravian links: Grammar - Lexicon - Ask a Dravian
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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by vec »

I won't swear that these are 100% accurate, esp. the Faroese, but it's something like:

Icelandic: Afklæða ['ɐ̞ʋkʰlaið̞ɐ̞]
Faroese: Afklæða ['aʋkʰla.a]
Danish: Afklæde ['aʊkʰlεˀð̞ˠ̠ə]
Swedish: Avklä ['avkʰlεː] (not sure where the tones go)

You'll notice that despite the initial stress, the k is still aspirated in each of them which shows that people treat the prefix is getting some kind of special treatment (as in most of these, a k in this position would lose its aspiration if the first two syllables were a root) but universally the stress is initial in these words.

As far as I know Danish and Swedish generally treat this particular word as separates, with klæde af and klë av, though the compound does exist.
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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by Astraios »

vec wrote:Faroese: Afklæða ['aʋkʰlεaja]
I think.

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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by vec »

Astraios wrote:
vec wrote:Faroese: Afklæða ['aʋkʰlεaja]
I think.
I don't think glide insertion happens between æ and a but I might be wrong. It also depends on whether Faroese makes the æ long or not. Icelandic doesn't.
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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by Astraios »

Klæði is long klεajɪ at least.

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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by vec »

In Icelandic only stressed vowels can be long, so klæði has long æ /'klæ:ðı/ but afklæða has short æ /'afklæða/. I think Faroese is the same although I'm not sure.
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Re: Liedansk (Danish of Lies)- Another Scrachpad

Post by Nortaneous »

vec wrote:
Astraios wrote:
vec wrote:Faroese: Afklæða ['aʋkʰlεaja]
I think.
I don't think glide insertion happens between æ and a but I might be wrong.
Just by the Wikipedia article, I'd guess -εa.a -- it looks like vowels before a glide are usually (always?) long.
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